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ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, September 9, 2008. BOARD MEMBERS ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: 1 Novi, Michigan 2 Tuesday, September 9, 2008 3 7:00 p.m. 4 - - - - - - 5 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right, it's 7 7:01. I'd like to call to order the 8 September 9th, 2009, Zoning Board of Appeals 9 meeting. 10 Ms. Working, would you please call the 11 roll for us. 12 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 13 MR. BAUER: Present. 14 MS. WORKING: New Member Burke? 15 MEMBER BURKE: Here. 16 MS. WORKING: Nice to see you. 17 MEMBER BURKE: Nice to be seen. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Welcome back, sir. 21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you 22 so much. 23 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 24 MEMBER SHROYER: Present.
5 1 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Present. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 4 MEMBER GHANNAM: Present. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Present. 7 MS. WORKING: Welcome back. 8 Member Ibe? 9 MEMBER IBE: Present. 10 MS. WORKING: All present, Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Excellent. 12 That's a good thing for a change. 13 Member Krieger, welcome back from your 14 vacation. 15 Member Sanghvi, welcome back from your 16 absence. 17 And, Mr. Burke, as our newest member, 18 why don't you go ahead and lead us in the 19 Pledge of Allegiance. 20 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge allegiance to 21 the flag of the United States of America and 22 to the Republic for which it stands, one 23 nation under God indivisible with liberty 24 and justice for all.
6 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, I would like 2 to mention that the rules of conduct and 3 procedure are in the back of the room for 4 anyone who would be interested. They can 5 also be found on the City of Novi's website. 6 A couple of things I would like to 7 point out. If everybody could please turn 8 off all cell phones and pagers. And we 9 usually restrict people to having 10 individuals speak for five minutes when they 11 are addressing the Board and those 12 representing a group will have 10 minutes to 13 address the Board. 14 The Zoning Board of Appeals is a 15 Hearing Board empowered by the City of Novi 16 Charter to hear appeals seeking variance 17 from the application of the Novi Zoning 18 Ordinance. 19 It takes a vote of at least four 20 members to approve a variance request and a 21 vote of the majority present to deny a 22 request. Tonight we do have a full Board, 23 so any decisions made will be final. 24 And we have an agenda before us. Are
7 1 there any changes by City Staff or the 2 Board? 3 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer, I 4 would like to bring to your attention in 5 your hearing file that case number three 6 under unfinished business, 08-045, has 7 submitted written request to be postponed 8 until the October agenda. They had mock 9 sign problems. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Case number 11 08-045 will be tabled. Did you want to add 12 the dates under number three for other 13 matters for 2009? Or is that something we 14 will discuss at a later date? 15 MS. WORKING: Yes, please. We can add 16 under other matters, the discussion of the 17 2009 ZBA calendar hearing dates. 18 One more change for your agenda, sir. 19 Case number two under new business, 08-049. 20 The property is zoned R-A and is located 21 east of Beck Road and south of Eleven Mile 22 at 25300 Beck Road. 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Does that 24 present any noticing issues for us?
8 1 MS. WORKING: That's not a problem, 2 no. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right. And, 4 lastly, I would like to actually go ahead 5 and strike the approval of minutes from the 6 Agenda given that we were given August in 7 our packets tonight at the meeting, so we 8 will go ahead and look those over and we 9 will put August approval on the October 10 agenda. 11 So, we have an agenda before us. I 12 will entertain a motion to approve as 13 amended. 14 MEMBER BAUER: So moved. 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Second. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 17 motion by Member Bauer and a second by 18 Member Sanghvi. All in favor say aye? 19 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any opposed? 21 Seeing none, we will go with the agenda. 22 Given that, we will move to the public 23 remarks section of our agenda tonight. I 24 will ask for anyone to come forward if they
9 1 have any comments to make. All comments 2 related to a case on the agenda should be 3 held until that case is heard. However, if 4 anyone wishes to address the Board on a 5 matter or a case not on the agenda tonight, 6 please feel free to come forward at this 7 time. 8 Seeing none, we will close the public 9 remarks section of the meeting and move to 10 our first case under unfinished business. 11 Case number: 08-029, filed by 12 Amarjit Chawney of Villagewood Place 13 Condominiums located at Haggerty Road and 14 Kartar Lane. As the Board may remember, the 15 Board was asked to reconsider this at their 16 last meeting. Is the Petitioner here 17 tonight? If you will come forward. 18 The Petitioner is requesting one sign 19 variance for the continued placement of a 20 15-square feet real estate marketing sign 21 measuring 6 feet in height for Villagewood 22 Place. The property is zoned RM-1 and 23 located on Kartar Lane west of Haggerty 24 between Nine and Ten Mile Roads.
10 1 This sign was originally approved in 2 ZBA 04-092 for a year and then extended 3 until here we are today. So, if you want to 4 raise your hand and be sworn in by our Board 5 Secretary. 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Do you swear or 7 affirm in case number: 08-029 to tell the 8 truth in this case? 9 MR. CHAWNEY: I do. 10 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If you will say 12 your name and address and then go ahead and 13 proceed with your case. 14 MR. CHAWNEY: Thank you. My name is 15 Amarjit Chawney. My address is 23965 Novi 16 Road, Suite 120, Novi, 48375. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Go ahead. 18 MR. CHAWNEY: This is a development 19 that we have owned for over 20 something 20 years. We converted it into for sale 21 condominiums from rental about four years 22 ago. And obviously as you are much aware of 23 that the sales market is very, very 24 depressed and we have not been able to sell
11 1 many units except we sold like one-third of 2 the total and we need the sign to continue 3 with marketing efforts. Hopefully we will 4 be able to sell some more and get on with 5 it. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any further 7 comments? 8 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I don't have 9 any further comments. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. I will 11 ask the Secretary to read any correspondence 12 for us. 13 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number 14 08-029, 860 notices were mailed. Zero 15 approvals. Three objections. 16 First one is, "I request that the 17 Zoning Board of Appeals deny the Applicant's 18 petition for a continued sign variance. The 19 Applicant needs to comply with the City of 20 Novi Code of Ordinances Section 28-63 the 21 temporary signs. It seems that requesting a 22 4th year for the sign is beyond any 23 definition of temporary. 24 Additionally, the sign is out of
12 1 compliance in that it is larger than 2 permitted. The Zoning Board has been more 3 than generous in granting the previous 4 variance petitions. It is time to comply. 5 Nancy Strakey (ph) on Rockledge. 6 The next one is, "I do not feel a 7 bigger sign will help his problem of selling 8 those condos. He has two things going 9 against him. One, the economy. Two, those 10 aren't nice places. Our entryway into 11 Lakewood is kept up and the sign cheapens 12 the area at the size it is already. We 13 don't want a 15-foot sign ruining the 14 landscape. No sign will help those places. 15 I have seen in them. They have a horrible 16 floor plan." Julie Huntley on Woolsey. 17 The last one is, "The Villagewood 18 Place Condominium sign variance request be 19 denial for the following reasons: This sign 20 was to be only a temporary sign. How long 21 is a temporary sign for? This sign has been 22 a temporary sign for about four years. The 23 sign is too big and stands out. Therefore, 24 it is a distraction for traffic on Haggerty
13 1 Road and it is a safety hazard. 2 Also, the sign should be removed 3 because the economic downturn of the state 4 rental or lease. The Petitioner was not 5 present at the June and July meeting and a 6 request for the sign was denied at the July 7 meeting." From Judy Yormin (ph) and on 8 Rockledge. 9 That's it. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Madam 11 Secretary. 12 Is there anyone in the audience who 13 wishes to make a comment on this case? 14 Seeing none, we will close the public 15 comments and ask the Building Department if 16 they have any comments? 17 MR. FOX: Mr. Chair, for clarification 18 purposes, the original sign was approved in 19 2004 for this project. It's since then 20 received three variances for extensions in 21 time. One in 2005, 2006 and 2007. 22 Also, of note, the sign that was 23 approved in 2007, had a small attachment on 24 the side that was not part of the approval.
14 1 The sign has since changed to a different 2 sign. It's the same size sign, but it's a 3 different look than it was before, also with 4 a slightly larger attachment across the 5 center of it. That's all. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Mr. 7 Fox. 8 I will go ahead and open it up for any 9 Board Member discussion or comments or 10 questions. 11 Member Bauer? 12 MEMBER BAUER: I would like to ask the 13 Applicant. Are you still renting out the 14 places that aren't sold? 15 MR. CHAWNEY: No, sir, I'm not. 16 MEMBER BAUER: How many do you have 17 sold? 18 MR. CHAWNEY: We have eight sold out 19 of 24. 20 MEMBER BAUER: You had six last year, 21 I believe? 22 MR. CHAWNEY: Yes, we sold two more 23 last year. We sold two more last year. 24 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.
15 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Shroyer? 2 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 Mr. Chawney, how else are you advertising? 4 MR. CHAWNEY: We listed the units with 5 one of the local realtors, Roger Murray 6 (ph), a very nice young man. And he has put 7 on the MLS. He advertises regularly because 8 -- and then I personally sit in the model 9 during the weekends and I have a sign on the 10 entrance to the model saying for appointment 11 during the week call me. I have gone there 12 promptly. Because my office is right here 13 at 10 Mile and Novi Road anyway. 14 MEMBER SHROYER: Of the eight units 15 that have sold, do you have any idea as to 16 how many were brought in with the sign or 17 how many were brought in through the MLS? 18 MR. CHAWNEY: Most I would say 60 to 19 65 percent of the people walk in to see the 20 sign and come in, 60 to 65 percent. And we 21 had it on the internet also for about 22 three years on the website and we got couple 23 of people through there. 24 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you. Mr.
16 1 Chair, and the Board, this has gone on a 2 long time, but we all know the economy is 3 extremely poor and everybody is having 4 difficulty. I don't have a problem with the 5 continuation of another year for the 6 signage, but I would like to see it brought 7 into compliance with the correct size that 8 we permit everywhere else in the City. 9 That's my current feeling. Thank you, Mr. 10 Chair. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 12 Member Shroyer. Member Bauer? 13 MEMBER BAUER: I also will follow the 14 last remarks that were made. Giving one 15 more year for the sign and have them bring 16 it up to the original where it should have 17 been without the, "Buy Now Prices Slashed." 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 19 Member Bauer. 20 I would echo those sentiments as well. 21 I look at this sign and it's very large and 22 I look at a lot of verbiage that can be 23 taken off of the sign. The "Why rent when 24 you can have it all for less?" The "Prices
17 1 Slashed." 2 Alan, what's the size that they would 3 be allowed? 4 MR. AMOLSCH: Without a variance they 5 are allowed six square feet in area and five 6 feet in height. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Six square feet 8 in area and five in height. I would echo 9 those sentiments and approve something of 10 that magnitude. 11 Other Board Members? 12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes, I have 13 no problem. One thing is we need to find 14 out what kind of verbiage will go on that 15 sign. And you can't change the verbiage 16 willy-nilly as you please. What is approved 17 only can be put on that sign. It has to be 18 clarified very loud and clear to everybody. 19 Thank you. 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any comments, 21 Alan or Beth or Robin? 22 MS. WORKING: No. 23 MEMBER BAUER: Can we ask him what 24 size sign he wants to put up? Can you put
18 1 up a sign that will conform? 2 MR. CHAWNEY: Sir, what I am willing 3 and I will be happy to do is remove that 4 attachment that we put on. And if the sign 5 could stay the same size, I will be very 6 thankful the way it is. Because the sign is 7 I think four feet by six feet right now and 8 I have gotten a variance on that one last 9 time when I was here. But I will remove 10 that extra attachment that I put up. That I 11 will remove. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Alan, what's the size 13 of the sign now? 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I believe he 15 said it was 4 by 6, which would mean 24 16 square feet. Does that sound right, Alan? 17 MS. WORKING: Through the Chair, 18 Members of the Board, in case number: 19 04-092, the Petitioner was requesting a 15 20 square feet and 6 feet in height be 21 approved. And that was the motion in that 22 case, approval of that size sign. The 23 motion sheet is in your packet information. 24 MEMBER BAUER: It's not that big a
19 1 sign, so. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Shroyer? 3 MEMBER SHROYER: I can make a motion, 4 but I would need assistance with the 5 verbiage if Member Sanghvi would care to 6 help with that perhaps. But my motion is 7 not for the continuation of the sign with 8 just the removal of the banner, it would be 9 for a sign that would bring it back into 10 compliance. 11 Does the Chair want me to go forward 12 with that? 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I don't see an 14 issue with that. I would support something 15 of that dimension. I am not one to often 16 dictate what verbiage we use. 17 MEMBER BAUER: We can't use it. We 18 can't do it. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would prefer 20 to leave it open for their interpretation. 21 MS. KUDLA: To the Chair, can I point 22 out something? 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You may. 24 MS. KUDLA: The request here is, the
20 1 variance specifically is for a size 2 increase. That was the original variance 3 granted. So, if you are seeking to not 4 grant a size increase, this would 5 technically be a denial. You would be 6 submitting a new sign application. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Are we not 8 looking at the time frame? 9 MS. KUDLA: We're looking at the size. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, the time 11 frame is not an issue? 12 MS. KUDLA: The time frame is not the 13 requested variance. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, it's not out 15 of conformance? 16 MS. WORKING: The variance requested 17 is to extend or continue the existing sign 18 that was approved in 04-092 which was an 19 increase request. And then it was approved 20 again in '07. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Agreed. 22 MS. WORKING: And it's before you 23 again today. So, he is asking you to 24 approve what is existing which is a
21 1 15-square foot 6-foot high sign. The 2 Ordinance allows for a 6-square foot sign 3 for a temporary sign of this nature to 4 advertise this type of property. 5 MS. KUDLA: So currently he is 6 permitted to have the sign, he just needs a 7 variance to keep the size that he has 8 requested. 9 MS. WORKING: And extend it for 10 another year. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, why can't we 12 agree to the year with a smaller size like 13 we often do? 14 MS. KUDLA: Well, the smaller size, if 15 you are going back to what's required by 16 Ordinance since the original request is for 17 a size increase, that would basically be a 18 denial of what was requested. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Burke? 20 MEMBER BURKE: Question for staff, 21 this sign was approved in '06, '07. When he 22 added this banner, when was that? 23 Or perhaps the Applicant can tell me. 24 When did you add the banner?
22 1 MR. CHAWNEY: Oh, the banner on it? 2 MEMBER BURKE: Right. 3 MR. CHAWNEY: We added that I believe 4 earlier this year. And the reason that was 5 done was that our bank, our lender had 6 insisted that we put some more information, 7 like reduce the prices, and that was the 8 reason that was done. But as I said, I will 9 be happy to remove that. I have no problem. 10 MEMBER BURKE: Right. Because 11 technically then that sign became 12 non-compliant because he increased by some 13 small margin the square footage of the sign, 14 correct? 15 MS. KUDLA: Technically you could 16 approve the request to keep the variance, 17 but just removing the banner. 18 MEMBER BURKE: Right. Which goes back 19 to the original size of the sign that was 20 granted an extension in '07. 21 MS. KUDLA: Right. 22 MEMBER BURKE: That I would support. 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is there a 24 motion on the table then?
23 1 MEMBER BURKE: Let me just ask. If I 2 were you I would rework that sign somehow 3 because it's just -- if you are trying to 4 get some fresh new approach out there, I 5 think you got to change up the sign. A 6 little less language. You just can't fit 7 all that stuff on 15-square feet and expect 8 somebody driving by at 50 miles an hour to 9 read it. 10 MR. CHAWNEY: You are absolutely 11 correct, number one. Number two, sometimes 12 we get driven by slogans and this and that. 13 I understand that too. The problem is, the 14 biggest thing that I put on my signs is the 15 telephone number more than anything else. 16 That's the biggest statement on the whole 17 thing. Nobody reads the sign anyway, but 18 they get attracted and they see the number. 19 Now, these signs are not cheap. They 20 cost quite a bit of money. The economy is 21 very rough and I am not doing anything else, 22 but I'm just putting the reality on the 23 surface here. Now, I have no control over 24 the economy, neither do you. It's what you
24 1 call a total thing that has happened to our 2 country. But I am trying to sell and this 3 sign has helped me a little bit. And even in 4 the paperwork we give out, we give them a 5 comparison of renting against buying. And 6 that was the reason we put the words "why 7 rent," on it. But I will remove that "prices 8 slashed" thing from it. 9 MEMBER BURKE: That's all. Thank you, 10 Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Mr. 12 Burke. 13 So, where are we at? 14 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, that wipes out 15 my motion. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: That's true. I 17 still would have a very tough time 18 supporting a sign of this magnitude. We 19 have given this size for over four years and 20 that has led to about two sales per year. I 21 don't think that the size is obviously 22 helping. And I think that the important 23 information that would allow the Petitioner 24 to market this property can be done within
25 1 conformance of the size that's permitted by 2 Ordinance. So, that is my main concern with 3 approving this for another year. That would 4 be five years of this sign being out there. 5 That is a very long time to try to sell 6 24 units. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: I have a 8 question for our attorney. Can we do this 9 in this two parts. In the first part we can 10 deny the current request? And in the second 11 part we approve the Ordinance sign with this 12 discussion and the discussion by the staff? 13 MS. KUDLA: Well, I think if you deny 14 the variance as requested, what you are 15 getting back to then is that he would be 16 having to submit a new application for a 17 sign that's meeting Ordinance standards at 18 that point. So, once you deny it -- 19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: The rest is 20 a moot point. 21 MS. KUDLA: Yeah. 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: So, we can 23 modify the size according to -- 24 MS. KUDLA: Because he is asking for a
26 1 size increase, that's the main variance is 2 the size increase. It would be a denial. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Because we were 4 looking to go into conformity. But if we 5 were going to go by 3 by 7 feet -- 6 MS. KUDLA: Something bigger than 7 conformity. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Bigger than 9 conformance, but less than this -- 10 MS. KUDLA: Right -- 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Then we would 12 still have the jurisdiction to do that? 13 MS. KUDLA: You could do that. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. But what 15 size would be appropriate? 16 MEMBER BAUER: To who? 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is there a 18 smaller size that you can live with, sir? 19 As you can see, the Board is having some 20 difficulty approving something of this 21 magnitude. 22 MR. CHAWNEY: Let me be very, very 23 frank. This is a project that I have had 24 since 1984, and I have been paying an
27 1 average of about $20,000 a year in real 2 estate taxes to the City of Novi. I have 3 been a good member. I have been a good 4 citizen. I have paid my taxes, and I am 5 simply trying to conduct a business. Now, 6 if the sign helps or not help, I do not 7 know. My feeling would be, yes, it helps 8 me. And in return every time I sell a unit, 9 it produces close to about $3,200 in taxes 10 for the City of Novi. It's business, it's 11 nothing else. If you deny me this thing I 12 will just remove the sign and not do 13 anything about it and just leave it alone. 14 It's a very difficult situation. 15 Economically it's a -- I am speaking 16 frankly. I ask for your forgiveness for 17 that. But please believe me, if I have to 18 go spend another thousand dollars on a sign 19 so that it can be a little bit smaller, I am 20 not going to put up any sign there. I will 21 be put into a very difficult situation for 22 my marketing of my units. 23 At this time, money is of very 24 importance for everybody. We are all
28 1 looking to see how we can best survive in 2 this thing and that's all I'm trying to do. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Understood. I 4 think we can all empathize with that at this 5 time, but we do have Ordinances for a reason 6 and I think we got our answer regarding 7 lowering the size of the sign. 8 Any other Board Member comments or 9 direction? All or nothing. 10 MEMBER BAUER: Well, that puts us on 11 the spot then. I'll make a motion. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Let me just ask 13 Member Ibe. He looked like he was 14 contemplating something. I want to make 15 sure if he wants comments on the record that 16 he has an opportunity. 17 MEMBER IBE: Perhaps to the Applicant. 18 Is that okay? 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Absolutely. 20 MEMBER IBE: Thank you. Mr. Chawney, 21 I empathize with you, seriously. 22 Undoubtedly you have made your case about 23 the economy. I am sure everyone can feel 24 that we are not in great financial good
29 1 times right now. Things are tough. Times 2 are hard. However, you got to understand 3 that the Board is trying to accommodate you 4 in the best way it possibly can. As you can 5 see we do have three people who oppose what 6 you are trying to do. The letters that were 7 sent in. 8 The Board is willing to even 9 accommodate you for one extra year, which, 10 of course, is unheard of. I mean, we don't 11 want to appear as if we just rubber stamp 12 things around here and have people extend 13 things willy-nilly any time they want it. 14 But you are not making it easy. Is there 15 any way at all perhaps, considering your 16 circumstances, the financial situations that 17 you have described to us, that you can be 18 amenable to the size just to at least 19 accomplish what you are trying to do and at 20 the same time, give this Board the latitude 21 to be able to give you something back? 22 And, sir, before you make up your 23 mind, I know how you feel about it. You are 24 very passionate about what you do. I
30 1 completely understand that. But you 2 remember, sir, that the economic times will 3 even dictate that we also do things a bit 4 differently. 5 Now, you may not agree with me, but I 6 think that a reasonable mind will probably 7 differ with you. Perhaps it might be a good 8 idea that you redo that size and see how it 9 plays out for one more year, which, of 10 course, remember now, no one wants to 11 approve it for one more year, but we are 12 willing to give you that if you can see 13 things our way. 14 Do you think, sir, you will find it in 15 your heart to perhaps be flexible on this 16 issue? 17 MR. CHAWNEY: Well, let me make couple 18 of comments. Over the past -- I have been 19 coming to City of Novi since 1974. And I 20 have been as an architect, practiced here, 21 helped other projects being designed and I 22 have personally invested close to $10 23 million -- about $9 million in developments 24 in this town. This is the first time I am
31 1 facing a situation about a sign. I have 2 always found, especially Mr. Amolsch, he has 3 been so kind and nice to me. He knows me 4 for a long, long time. I have never done 5 anything without informing him ahead of 6 time. 7 Now, whether the sign is there or not, 8 it may change my sales, it may not change my 9 sales. The thing that I have to review at 10 this time, what's in it for me for the 11 future. If it means that I have to go spend 12 $1,000, $1,200 on a sign just to put it up, 13 I am not going to do it. I will not do it. 14 If you want me to remove the 15 sign, I will remove the sign. But then the 16 project will sit there and take longer to 17 sale. It's only a sign. I have had it for 18 four years -- since 2007. So, that would be 19 this is -- last time I approve was in 2007. 20 Initially I came here in 2005, I believe, if 21 I am not mistaken. So, three and a half 22 years. I never thought it would be this big 23 of a deal. If it is a big deal, I will do 24 what I have to do. I am sorry, I am a
32 1 little bit open and free verbal speech and I 2 hope you will forgive, and the 3 consideration, give me consideration as a 4 businessman. 5 This is money that I will not recover. 6 And, again, I am trying to sell units that 7 are in the long run are part of City of 8 Novi. Produces tax base for City of Novi. 9 It's for everybody's good wishes and 10 wellbeing. I would love to keep the sign as 11 is. I will remove the banner from it, I 12 agree. And I think that's a very attractive 13 sign. 14 MEMBER IBE: Thank you very much. 15 MR. CHAWNEY: Thank you for your 16 comments. 17 MEMBER IBE: You are welcomed, sir. 18 Thank you, Mr. Chair. No further comments. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 20 Member Ibe. 21 Member Shroyer? 22 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, sir, something 23 else I would consider trying to look at the 24 monies -- where did he go?
33 1 MR. CHAWNEY: Sorry. 2 MEMBER SHROYER: I'm sorry too. I 3 didn't notice you sat down. 4 THE WITNESS: I apologize. 5 MEMBER SHROYER: No problem. In 6 looking at the money situation because I 7 understand it is very expensive. And it 8 would cost money to remove the sign as well. 9 So, the money that it would take to remove 10 the sign, would you be open to the 11 possibility of just cutting it off right 12 above the "buy now" and eliminate the part 13 that says, "Why rent when you can have it 14 all for less?" That would reduce the size 15 of the sign by about a third. 16 MR. CHAWNEY: Let me tell you -- 17 may I comment now? 18 MEMBER SHROYER: Sure. 19 MR. CHAWNEY: Believe me. I am an 20 architect and a builder. If it has to be 21 changed it has to be taken out. By the time 22 you call somebody to cut it, do this, do 23 that, no, it will not work. 24 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay, thank you. Mr.
34 1 Chair, in that case I would be in favor of a 2 denial. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Do we have a 4 motion? 5 MEMBER SHROYER: I don't have one 6 ready. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Go ahead. 8 MEMBER SHROYER: Oh, you want me to go 9 ahead. In case number: 08-029 filed by 10 Amarjit Chawney of Villagewood Park 11 Condominiums, LLC, located on Haggerty Road 12 and Kartar Lane, move to deny the request 13 for a continuation of a 15-square foot real 14 estate marketing sign measuring 6 foot in 15 height. The reasons are that the Applicant 16 has not provided substantial proof that the 17 features are exceptional and unique to the 18 property and that relief will not 19 unreasonably prevent or limit the use of the 20 property. Let's see if there is something 21 else I need to add here. And leaving the 22 sign there may result in substantial 23 injustice being done to both the Applicant, 24 adjacent and surrounding properties and it
35 1 is not consistent with the spirit of the 2 Ordinance. 3 MEMBER IBE: I will second that. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If I may suggest 5 a friendly amendment that the standard that 6 the Board used is practical difficulty, just 7 to make sure that's part of the motion. 8 That the Petitioner did not establish that 9 conformance with the size permitted by 10 Ordinance. It is not reasonable to maintain 11 -- well, it's just not reasonable. And that 12 also the size of the sign being larger in 13 height than the existing Lakewood Park Home 14 sign is unfair to the surrounding properties 15 and unreasonably interferes with the 16 adjacent properties and does not do 17 substantial justice to those property 18 owners. 19 And the Seconder? 20 MEMBER IBE: Yes, I will agree with 21 that. 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We have a motion 23 and a second by Member Ibe. 24 Ms. Working, if you will please call
36 1 the roll. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 3 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 5 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? Motion 7 to deny. 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: No. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: No. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 12 MEMBER BAUER: No. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Burke? 14 MEMBER BURKE: No. 15 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 17 MS. WORKING: We have three in favor 18 to deny and four in favor of not denying. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right, I 20 will open it up to those not wishing to deny 21 and ask for your comments or a motion. 22 Member Burke? 23 MEMBER BURKE: In the spirit of 24 working with the Petitioner, I am agreeable
37 1 to extending the variance if he brings the 2 current sign into compliance with the 3 formerly approved extension. It was my 4 personal recommendation that he might want 5 to clean up the language on the sign. I 6 don't care for the sign itself. But as far 7 as the actual sign itself, the size that the 8 ZBA approved last year, I would continue -- 9 I would vote to continue that if the sign 10 were in compliance. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Krieger? 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: He has already stated 13 that he will keep the sign the way it is or 14 remove it, so whether we make that motion or 15 not, he will take it down and that will be 16 it. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Does someone 18 care to make a motion? 19 MEMBER BURKE: I'll make a motion. 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Burke? 21 MEMBER BURKE: In case number: 08-029 22 filed by Amarjit Chawney of Villagewood 23 Place Condominiums, LLC for Villagewood 24 Place located at Haggerty Road and Kartar
38 1 Lane, I vote to approve the variance for the 2 extension, for a one-year extension of the 3 sign that was originally approved in ZBA 4 04-092 for one year and extended in ZBA 5 05-107 and again in ZBA 07-007 which was the 6 most recent extension, for reasons that -- 7 for the same reasons that we approved the 8 extension in '07. That without the sign 9 might result in the inability to move the 10 real estate. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 13 motion by Member Burke and a second by 14 Member Bauer. Any further discussion? 15 Seeing none, Ms. Working, please call the 16 roll. 17 I'm sorry, I do have a point of 18 discussion. Can you please state a time 19 frame in your motion? 20 MS. WORKING: One year. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Did he say 22 one year? 23 MEMBER BURKE: Yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Go ahead.
39 1 MS. WORKING: Member Burke? 2 MEMBER BURKE: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 4 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 8 MEMBER IBE: Unequivocally no. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 10 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 14 MEMBER SHROYER: No. 15 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve passes 16 4-3. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You have been 18 granted for one year. Best of luck moving 19 your units. 20 MR. CHAWNEY: Thank you. And I will 21 remove that banner right away. 22 MEMBER BAUER: Take that banner off. 23 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right, we'll
40 1 move along to case number: 08-038 of HINO 2 Trucks. As Board Members may remember, this 3 case was tabled from the August 12th, 2008, 4 meeting. The Petitioner is requesting one 5 75-square foot illuminated wall sign for the 6 north elevation located at 41180 Bridge 7 Street. The property is zoned I1 and 8 located north of Eleven Mile and east of 9 Meawdowbrook Road. 10 I will remind Mr. Lutz that you were 11 sworn in last time and remember that we did 12 receive the information via our packet and 13 if you want to go ahead and clue us in on 14 any new information or any other pertinent 15 information, please go ahead and do so. 16 MR. LUTZ: Well, we do have some new 17 information. Some of which was generated by 18 the Board. You had asked some specific 19 questions about signage on adjacent 20 properties because one of the items that is 21 important to this client is visibility. And 22 this is a very challenging piece of property 23 in terms of visibility. 24 If we can get our first slide up here
41 1 we will show you that, we hope. This 2 property if you have been by the property is 3 only visible from the ramp on I-96 to 275. 4 That is the only place you can possibly see 5 this sign. In fact, and if we don't get 6 some action here soon I brought a backup 7 tonight. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It's searching 9 for you. 10 MR. LUTZ: That's a good sign. If any 11 of you have seen this property, and in order 12 to see this property you have had to slow 13 down and/or pull over to the side of the 14 road because you only have a few feet of 15 visibility between trees, and then when you 16 pass it, it's a very short period of time. 17 If I can get a diagram we will show that, 18 but in lieu of that, if we could use this 19 overhead projector since I have this 20 information available to me that way, we 21 will do it that way. Robin, does this just 22 automatically switch on if I put something 23 underneath here? 24 MS. WORKING: It will be interesting
42 1 to see what happens. I am not sure. 2 MR. LUTZ: I understand new equipment 3 is on the way. 4 MS. WORKING: No disrespect. 5 Dave just switched it for you. 6 MR. LUTZ: I talked to him 7 earlier. He said he would. He said new 8 equipment is due in on Thursday, so this is 9 a good thing. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You have the 11 overhead. 12 MR. LUTZ: We're on the overhead 13 now? 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes. 15 MR. LUTZ: Well, this is going to be a 16 challenge. I don't know if we are going to 17 be able to see this. We really got a hot 18 spot here which is obscuring my whole 19 intent. Let's do it this way. 20 MS. WORKING: You can also hand it to 21 Member Ibe and they can send it down the 22 line for a second view after you are 23 finished. 24 MR. LUTZ: Right. And I have that
43 1 available to me. The property you mentioned 2 is this property right there. You may be 3 able to see this even better than I here on 4 the projector. But you can see this line of 5 trees here, that prevents you from even 6 seeing this building as you are proceeding, 7 which is really southeast on the ramp from 8 96 to 275. Here is 96 up here. 275 is way 9 down over here. So, I have drawn a line 10 which is the closest possible line to that 11 tree right there. Now, remember, these are 12 overhead photos taken in '06, so these trees 13 are even bigger now than they were. So, 14 that's the soonest you can possibly see this 15 sign. Now, the distance here is about 16 230 feet. The last possible place that I 17 think you can see this sign on the 18 expressway if you are a driver is when you 19 are directly adjacent to the building 20 because then you are having to look directly 21 to your side, which you can't do for very 22 darn long on that expressway at 70 miles an 23 hour. 24 So, I would maintain at best you have
44 1 this area right here to observe that sign 2 because this is not available for it to be 3 seen in any other place. Now, the distance 4 which you may or may not be able to see 5 there is 163 feet. When you can first even 6 see the building where the sign is going to 7 be located and when you can no longer see 8 the sign because you are going to have to be 9 driving. At 163 feet, at 70 miles an hour, 10 an automobile travels at 102 feet per 11 second, that means our viewing, our maximum 12 and optimal site viewing time is 13 1.6 seconds. So, this sign at 75 square 14 feet is maybe visible for 1.6 seconds if you 15 catch it at the very beginning of that 163 16 feet and you look at it to the end. So, I 17 think that's a key piece of information. 18 Now, on the GIS system, this distance, 19 the setback to the center line of the road 20 shows it at about 148 feet. We physically 21 measured this distance. The GIS is off by a 22 couple of feet, it's really 150 feet. But 23 that was done on an early Sunday morning 24 when you didn't have to dodge traffic quite
45 1 so much as you do on a regular day. So, 2 that's the first thing. The first piece of 3 information. 4 The second piece of information is the 5 actual, and for the members that may not 6 have been here last meeting and want to see 7 what the proposed sign is going to look 8 like, that's what it would look like if you 9 are off on the side of the road. This 10 actually seems to be a little bit closer 11 because it is. I am not in the highway 12 taking this photograph. I am on the side of 13 the road because this was taken not on a 14 Sunday morning when there wasn't any 15 traffic. 16 You can see the trees. The trees I 17 might add are not on private property, they 18 are in the right-of-way. This is 19 particularly different situation. It is a 20 unique piece of property. This property is 21 sandwiched in an area that has no visibility 22 from Bridge Street. The other buildings in 23 front of it between it and Bridge Street 24 completely obscures its visibility from
46 1 Bridge Street, which is the address. So, 2 you can't put a sign on that side of the 3 building. This is the only possible place 4 to put a sign. 5 In order to make this sign visible 6 given the setbacks, we have to have at least 7 the minimum, 12-high letters. HINO, the 8 message is HINO Trucks. And if you are not 9 familiar with HINO Trucks, they are actually 10 a division of Toyota and they are a 11 commercial truck division that sale mostly 12 to businesses and does parts manufacturing 13 and supply parts for commercial and for 14 consumer grade trucks. 15 The HINO which is kind of 16 the key word here is 12 inches. In order to 17 conform to the ordinance, those letters 18 would have to nine inches. It's just not 19 possible to see a nine inch high letter at 20 150 foot setback that's out of the normal 21 cone of vision. For maximum visibility when 22 we do traffic studies and long range 23 planning, we look at a cone of maximum 24 visibility of 10 percent each side to
47 1 center, so a whole 20 percent angle. This 2 as you can see from our first shot here is 3 considerably more than a 20 percent angle. 4 So this is really out of our direct line of 5 visibility. So, this is a challenging spot. 6 We approached this job from what's the 7 minimum size we can have in order to make it 8 visible given the circumstances here and we 9 came up with a 12-inch high letter and that 10 drove the sign in size. Now, the way this 11 Ordinance has been interpreted over the 12 years, which I tend to question frankly 13 because I don't think it makes any sense 14 from a logical standpoint, this is not a 15 75-square foot sign in terms of its visual 16 impact. We look at what's the visual impact 17 of the sign. It's irregular. It's a 18 circle. It has a certain visual impact. 19 This sign if we have to measure it by the 20 far outside edge of its front cabinet and 21 extend the uninterrupted lines at the very 22 end, we have a lot of wasted space. That's 23 not the visual impact. The visual impact of 24 this would enclose that first space to the
48 1 left and enclose the words trucks to the 2 right. That visual impact is 59-square 3 feet. Which means that size what we are 4 asking for is 9 square feet over and above 5 the allowable square footage for this 6 particular location given the setback. 7 8 I think we have got several things 9 working against us here. I think we do have 10 practical difficulty. This is obviously a 11 building that is tucked into a very 12 difficult place to build right next to the 13 expressway. It has no visibility from 14 Bridge Street, which its address is on. We 15 have got to get people to it. We have got 16 to have some kind of presence here. So, I 17 think we have practical difficulty. I think 18 we certainly have exceptional and unique 19 circumstances. 20 It's an odd piece of property. 21 It's not a self-created issue. The trees 22 don't exist on private property. We can't 23 cut then down. They are part of the federal 24 right-of-way, perhaps. There is no impact
49 1 on the surrounding property. 2 And that brings me to the situation 3 that you had asked, I don't know if it was 4 through Mr. Fischer by one of the other 5 Board Members about what is happening on the 6 adjacent properties. Well, we did some 7 photo studies and we did some research with 8 the help of Mr. Amolsch. The adjacent 9 properties to that piece of property and in 10 that complex, if you will, which is a group 11 of three or four buildings are depicted 12 here. The Rathsburg sign which is directly 13 behind this building has 27-inch high 14 letters and is 83-square feet. 15 The sign right down the street from 16 this and is also part of this complex, while 17 it's only 55-square feet, has 48-inch high 18 letters. 48-inch high letters are a lot 19 easier to read from the ramp on I-96. Other 20 signs that border I-96 and ramps on I-96 21 that are very close by, Red Robin restaurant 22 has 36-inch high letters. It is adjacent to 23 the ramp coming off Novi Road. TGI Fridays 24 has 27-inch high letters. Just about
50 1 anybody that borders that expressway or that 2 thoroughfare has larger letters than 12-inch 3 high. So, I don't think we are asking for 4 anything terribly exceptional here. 5 I think it's well justified. There 6 are exceptional circumstances, practical 7 difficulty and there is no impact on 8 adjacent properties because they have larger 9 height letters than we are asking for. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Mr. 11 Lutz. Any other comments? 12 MR. LUTZ: No. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Wait for the 14 Board's questions? 15 MR. LUTZ: Please. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will ask Madam 17 Secretary to read any correspondence. 18 MEMBER KRIEGER: In ZBA case 19 08-038, 18 notices were mailed. One 20 approval. Zero objections. The approval 21 is, "We are located at 41200 Bridge Street. 22 Our company name is Certified Management 23 Company. We do not see any negative impact 24 from this request. Therefore, we are in
51 1 favor of Novi granting this variance." This 2 is from Paul Finkell on Bridge Street. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Madam 4 Secretary. Is there anyone in the audience 5 who wishes to make a comment on this case? 6 Seeing none, I will ask the Building 7 Department if they have any comments? 8 MS. WORKING: Through the Chair, I 9 just want to point out in your packet 10 materials the overhead visual that Mr. Lutz 11 provided to you in the first segment of his 12 petition is in your packet, so he doesn't 13 need to pass that on to you. 14 MR. LUTZ: I can certainly pass 15 anything I have here around if you would 16 like. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We have several 18 overhead views of the property. So, unless 19 any Board Members object, I will just go 20 ahead and ask the Building Department if 21 they have any other comments? 22 MR. FOX: Just for clarification. The 23 Applicant is asking for a sign that's 24 roughly 28 and a half square feet larger
52 1 than allowed by the Ordinance. All the 2 signs on the adjacent properties that we 3 have talked about all do meet the Ordinance 4 requirements. It's based on the setback 5 from the road right-of-way, so it's varies 6 depending on whether the building's location 7 is adjacent to the setback or adjacent to 8 the right-of-way of the expressway. Thank 9 you. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Mr. 11 Fox. And I will open it up for Board 12 discussion. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Sanghvi? 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. 15 As you know I wasn't here last time when you 16 made your presentation. I am still trying 17 to figure out what is the purpose of this 18 sign at that location? This is not for a 19 business identification, is it? 20 MR. LUTZ: This is the headquarters in 21 this region for HINO Trucks. They are 22 trying to establish this name. This is not 23 a well-known name. It's not a consumer name 24 certainly. It's a large commercial truck
53 1 industry. They would like to establish 2 additional locations. They are looking at 3 other properties. They intent to have a 4 presence here and so it's important to get 5 name recognition. This is the only part of 6 the building that a sign could be seen from 7 any direction. So, they are allowed a sign. 8 They feel it's important to get that name 9 recognition. It's a part of their identity. 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: How many 11 people do we expect to see this sign and 12 come looking for their business on Bridge 13 Street from there? 14 MR. LUTZ: You know, Mr. Sanghvi, I 15 don't know the answer to that. But this is 16 a client who is willing to invest in this 17 area and they feel that they need some 18 recognition. From my standpoint, I have a 19 client that wants recognition and he comes 20 to us and says, how do I do that? So, we 21 look at this property and say, well, this is 22 a very difficult property. How do we go 23 about giving you some kind of name 24 recognition? How do we create some kind of
54 1 presence for you in this community so you 2 can identify with this community because 3 it's on your website. People are probably 4 going to be coming here. This is an R & D 5 facility. There will be engineering people 6 here. There will be traffic here. 7 So, we have to be able to find this 8 building. We need some kind of identifying 9 marks to do that other than a straight 10 address. So, our goal is how do we do this 11 in a logical way? Well, if we are going to 12 put it on that side of the building which is 13 the only side that's visible, we have to 14 make it large enough to be seen given the 15 speed of the traffic, given the setbacks, 16 given the setback and visual acuity that we 17 have from the highway. How do we do this? 18 So, this was a solution that we came up 19 with. 20 We used the statistics that have been 21 developed by Pennsylvania Transportation 22 Institute through the University of 23 Pennsylvania who have done many, many 24 traffic studies that give us some guidelines
55 1 in terms of size, what's visible. Contrast 2 colors, what works in terms of type styles, 3 what works in terms of size of copy at given 4 speeds. So, some of the statistics that I 5 have given you this evening are from their 6 work that they have done back in '04. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Other Board 9 Members? Member Ibe? 10 MEMBER IBE: Thank you very much, sir, 11 for the wonderful presentation. I must ad 12 lib real quickly that the Board should be 13 very mindful that the arguments presented by 14 Mr. Bill Lutz is exactly what I was afraid 15 of with the last case that we just heard 16 where we have parties making presentations 17 that impact on the economic investment they 18 have in the city. We are headed toward a 19 slippery slope where we see the Board caving 20 in in haste because parties make arguments 21 regarding how much has been invested and how 22 much the parties want to invest in the city. 23 We welcome the investment in the City of 24 Novi. However, we should be mindful of what
56 1 the Ordinance is. And the spirit of what 2 the Ordinance is designed for. 3 Now, your argument is no different 4 from the last party who was here. And if we 5 are going to obviously grant the last party 6 who was here, I favor that we grant what you 7 are asking for because I think yours make 8 more sense if you have given us more reasons 9 for me to vote in favor of what you are 10 asking for. You told us about this story 11 from the University of Pennsylvania which 12 tells us that you have done your homework 13 and clearly you are only asking for one 14 sign. And if you are going to get a sign, 15 it better be something that is worthwhile, 16 do it. Absolutely, I have no doubt at all 17 that if we are going to grant the last party 18 who was here based on emotions of investment 19 made in the city, I think that HINO Trucks 20 equally deserves the same kind of treatment. 21 So, I am in favor of what you are asking 22 for, sir. Thank you. 23 MR. LUTZ: Thank you. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Other Board
57 1 Members? I will go ahead and state my 2 comments first and foremost, that basing 3 anything on emotion from this seat is not 4 the way that I would like to see things done 5 nor do I think they should be done that way. 6 I have the distinct pleasure of going 7 down that -- 8 MEMBER BAUER: Bridge Street -- 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No, not down 10 Bridge Street. I take that highway to 275 11 from 96 every single day. So, I test it 12 pretty much every day how many seconds I 13 would be able to see that sign and I think 14 between the sign and by the time I would 15 have to get over I would have five seconds. 16 My concern about that is that I don't think 17 that the Ordinance was intended to allow 18 site identification from the highway. We do 19 not want people crossing traffic going 20 70 miles per hour because they see a sign. 21 So, I am not in favor of this. 22 I also look at the rendering, if you 23 can put that back up for me. 24 MR. LUTZ: Which one, Mr. Fischer?
58 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: The rendering of 2 the HINO Truck sign. 3 MR. LUTZ: You mean the specification 4 drawing or the one on the building? This is 5 a close-up of the one on the building. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: The 7 specifications. I look at some of the other 8 examples that we have similar to INCAT. 9 INCAT is actually systems. They decided to 10 leave the systems part off so they could 11 have large letters of sign. Why can't HINO 12 get rid of the logo and/or get rid of the 13 trucks, and/or get rid of the additional red 14 and black above the HINO and logo part? 15 MR. LUTZ: As a sign consultant it's 16 not our job, nor can we change corporate 17 logos. Now we're talking trademarks and 18 corporate logos and what's allowed and 19 what's allowed by licensing agreements and 20 patents and so forth and so on. 21 It's their decision that if you have 22 HINO you have to have the symbol. You have 23 to have the truck. I can think of numerous 24 examples like that whereas if you do away
59 1 with one, you have to do away with the 2 other. You can't have anything. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, you are 4 saying it would be legally impossible for 5 you just to have HINO? 6 MR. LUTZ: My understanding is from 7 their marketing -- 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Do you have 9 confirmation of that or is that just an 10 understanding? 11 MR. LUTZ: That's my understanding is 12 that they have to have the word trucks. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I have also 14 stated before to the Board, I look at some 15 of these other signs and they are 59 square 16 foot, 62 square foot. I could see to be 17 similar to other businesses in the area to 18 allow a little bit larger, but we have asked 19 once again for some type of negotiation. 20 Some type of compromise. We see a little 21 bit of a practical difficulty, but not one 22 that warrants a sign this big. So, once 23 again, I cannot support this request. 24 And I will open it in turn for other
60 1 Board Members. Member Shroyer? 2 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 I was one of the ones that was maybe more 4 vocal last time and really insisted upon 5 knowing the size of the surrounding signs 6 for properties nearby primarily looking for 7 consistency. What's fair to one is fair to 8 all and not wanting to have an influx of 9 other applicants coming in asking for larger 10 signs after we grant one. 11 The information that came back for 12 INCAT the sign was 3 foot 10 inches by 14 13 feet which is a little less than 56 square 14 feet. Finlay Industries was 3 feet by 15 18 feet for about 54 square feet. And you 16 mentioned a couple of others. You mentioned 17 Rathsburg 83 square feet. I wasn't aware of 18 that and I didn't even know where it was 19 located. 20 But, initially coming in I was 21 thinking that I would be okay with something 22 up to around 60 square feet. 23 MR. LUTZ: I would maintain that this 24 is a 59 square foot sign in terms of visual
61 1 impact. The only reason it's 75 is because 2 that's the way it's always been. 3 MEMBER SHROYER: I understand. 4 MR. LUTZ: Not because it's defined 5 very well that way. 6 MEMBER SHROYER: My question, and I 7 know you don't have a calculator with you 8 and things like that, but if we went down to 9 60 square feet, how much would that reduce 10 the size of the HINO letters? 11 MR. LUTZ: Well, if I just used and 12 think of it in terms of percentage basis 13 it's probably going to take those HINO 14 letters down to about 10 inches. The reason 15 we came up with 12 was simply visibility 16 studies said that's what they had to be. 17 MEMBER SHROYER: But obviously the 18 truck is going to be, the visual size is 19 much greater. 20 MR. LUTZ: Absolutely. 21 MEMBER SHROYER: So, if somebody honed 22 in on the trucks, they are probably going to 23 concentrate a little more as to what's 24 beside it.
62 1 MR. LUTZ: I am not sure. I certainly 2 don't doubt, Mr. Fischer, because I have had 3 contact with him over a number of years and 4 found him to be a very honest young man. 5 However, at 102 feet per second which is 70 6 miles an hour, unless he is going 7 considerably slower than that, the viewing 8 distance here unless he is looking behind 9 him is still 1.6 seconds and that's right 10 off your GIS system. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: The vibe was to 12 the chance to get off the exit. That was 13 what I was referring to. Just a 14 clarification of that. I don't doubt your 15 1.6 seconds on the site. I was talking 16 about something completely different. So, 17 just a point of information there. 18 MEMBER SHROYER: So, at any right 19 rate, that was initially what I was thinking 20 coming in. Now, hearing your presentation 21 I'm a little more open. I do want to hear 22 what the rest of the Board has to say. But 23 I was initially, like I said, willing to 24 grant a little bit more than the immediate
63 1 surrounding areas, but not an additional 20 2 square feet above and beyond what the others 3 have. So, we will see what the others have 4 to say. 5 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Mr. 7 Shroyer. 8 MEMBER SHROYER: If the other members 9 were going to say anything. 10 MEMBER BURKE: I don't necessarily 11 have a significant position one way or 12 another. I don't know how much more 13 business this is going to bring for HINO. I 14 don't know how many more people are going to 15 notice it. You still have that 1.2 seconds. 16 Whether it's a small sign, you still see it. 17 So, I don't understand the significant 18 impact that HINO is going to get out of 19 having a bigger sign. 20 As it relates to the previous 21 participant or Applicant, I voted for his 22 sign extension. Temporary sign is going to 23 be another year and he brought that back 24 into compliance with what we had, the ZBA
64 1 had already approved. This is completely 2 different. His economic impact on the City 3 had nothing to do with my position on that 4 previous vote, nor does HINO's. And I 5 appreciate their economic impact on the city 6 and I appreciate the amount of money we get 7 to collect in taxes, et cetera, et cetera. 8 However, the bottom line exist 9 for me that I don't know how much more it's 10 going to do for your business because if the 11 people are looking for HINO Trucks as they 12 are trying to get to it are going to see 13 that square footage as it exists now. 14 That's the way I see it. I will listen to 15 what everybody else has to say. 16 MR. LUTZ: Mr. Chair, may I respond to 17 that? 18 MEMBER BURKE: As soon as I finish. I 19 just don't see how much more you are going 20 to get out of it. Thank you. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Burke, it's 22 up to you. If you wish to ask questions or 23 if you want to hear his response to your 24 question?
65 1 MEMBER BURKE: You go right ahead. I 2 don't want to get into a debate about it. 3 MR. LUTZ: No, no, no. And I wouldn't 4 want to debate you about it. Frankly, our 5 purpose here is not to show any economic 6 impact. I don't think that's a valid 7 argument frankly. I never thought that was 8 a valid argument for a ZBA hearing. 9 What I do think is a valid argument is 10 where you have got a piece of property here 11 that is difficult to identify no matter who 12 is in it. You can put McDonald's in it and 13 it's difficult property to identify. There 14 is a point at which the copy, the word HINO 15 gets so small that it can't be seen. And 16 then it stops functioning and then it to me 17 becomes sign clutter. It's becomes just 18 busyness that can't be read. It's a blur. 19 I, frankly, have a little bit of 20 problem for that Finlay sign just for that 21 reason, it can't be read. I don't think 22 it's a good use of the available space that 23 was granted to them under a variance or 24 however they got that sign. To me if a sign
66 1 can't be read it's of no value to a client. 2 It's of no value to anybody. 3 HINO's purpose here is to develop a 4 presence in this marketplace. The only way 5 to develop a presence, especially in the 6 kind of business that they are in is to put 7 some signage out. To have somebody say, 8 gosh, what is that HINO Trucks thing and 9 start a little bit of discussion about it. 10 Maybe look them up on the internet. I don't 11 think that anybody is going to veer off on 12 an exit ramp looking for HINO Trucks. Now, 13 people that have appointments there that are 14 going there may see that and that may help 15 them, but it's not really meant as a way 16 finding tool, even though it could certainly 17 be argued that it is the only identity that 18 would be on that building. It's the only 19 way people would identify. 20 The City of Novi has allowed this 21 property to be built in a very difficult 22 area. I would say it's almost the City of 23 Novi created problem in a sense that they 24 have allowed this property to be put up and
67 1 not have any visible area to put a sign. 2 You understand where I'm coming from? This 3 is a challenging piece of property to put a 4 sign that's visible to anybody. So, we put 5 it on the only side of the road that it is 6 visible to anybody, even though it's only 7 visible for a second and a half, but it's 8 got to be seen. And if it can't be seen 9 then it's kind of no use. Nine inches which 10 is about where we would have to be in order 11 to comply with the Ordinance in terms of 12 height it's just not going to be visible. 13 It's going to look like a blur. You can see 14 trucks, but not HINO. But that kind of 15 misses the point. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other Board 17 Members wishes to make a comment? Member 18 Krieger? 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: I guess I see it as 20 the intent not as a place to arrive at, but 21 as you are driving by the expressway that 22 you get a name, you are looking at it, it 23 sticks in your head and you keep going and 24 you want to know where it is later or you
68 1 hear about it later and it defines what it 2 meant. So, as far as size, he has stated 3 for practical difficulty, odd shape of the 4 area and then the trees being out of the -- 5 in the right-of-way. So, I'm kind of headed 6 toward supporting what he is asking for 7 right now. Thank you. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 9 Member Krieger. 10 MEMBER BAUER: I only got a couple of 11 things to say. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Bauer? 13 MEMBER BAUER: This is a destination. 14 It's not something that you are looking for. 15 It's strictly an identification for that 16 individual. The truck driver that's looking 17 to drop off things there. He would have 18 instructions on how to get there. I can't 19 see any difficulty in increasing the sign. 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Other Board 21 Members? Member Shroyer? 22 MEMBER SHROYER: I have been 23 vacillating back and forth with this 24 obviously for two months now. Mr. Lutz
69 1 makes a very good point in many instances. 2 One of them being as does Member Bauer about 3 it being a destination. However, if the 4 sign falls within the size sign Ordinance, 5 people may not be able to read it even if 6 they are trying to find it as a destination. 7 So, I am going to go ahead and make a 8 motion. In case number: 08-038 filed by 9 Bill Lutz of Sign Graphix, Incorporated for 10 HINO Trucks located at 41182 [sic] Bridge 11 Street, I move to approve the wall sign as 12 presented whereas the Applicant has 13 successfully communicated the practical 14 difficulty that is present. 15 The failure to grant -- this motion is 16 based on a consistency with surrounding 17 properties, taking into account all the ones 18 that were discussed this evening. The 19 failure to grant relief would unreasonably 20 prevent or limit the use of this property 21 and will result in substantially more than 22 mere inconvenience or inability to obtain a 23 higher economic or financial return. And 24 the request is based upon circumstances
70 1 being unique to the property and it does not 2 result from conditions that exist generally 3 in the city or that are self-created. 4 MEMBER IBE: I will second the motion. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 6 motion and a second. Any further comments? 7 The motion by Member Shroyer and the second 8 by Member Ibe. 9 The only last comment that I would 10 want to make is that I, as I sit here and 11 look towards Mr. Lutz I see the City of Novi 12 logo. And I think to myself if they came in 13 and said we need to have City of as part of 14 our logo to be at least one foot, the sign 15 that that would require would be probably 16 much larger than any Ordinance. So, as we 17 allow these logos to distort our Ordinance, 18 I feel like we are headed down a slippery 19 path. 20 So, any other comments? 21 Ms. Working, please call the roll. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 23 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe?
71 1 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 7 MEMBER BAUER: No. 8 MS. WORKING: Member Burke? 9 MEMBER BURKE: Yes. 10 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No. 12 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve passes 13 5-2. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Your variance 15 has been granted. Best of luck to you guys. 16 MR. LUTZ: Thank you very much. We 17 appreciate your time and patience. 18 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Let's go ahead 20 and move along to our next case. That 21 closes the unfinished business for the 22 Zoning Board given that case number three on 23 the agenda under that was tabled or 24 postponed.
72 1 So, under new business we have 2 case number: 08-048 filed by Victor Muskat 3 of 2215 Old Novi Road. 4 Is the Petitioner here tonight? 5 All right, if you will please go ahead and 6 come forward. 7 The Petitioner is requesting a variance to 8 the required 20-foot front yard parking 9 setback standard for the proposed Abode 10 Salon located at said address. The property 11 is zoned B-3 and is located east of Novi 12 Road and south of Wainwright Street. 13 MR. KAPELCZAK: Good evening, my name 14 is Joe Kapelczak from JCK representing Abode 15 -- 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: One second. If 17 you would be sworn in by our Board 18 Secretary. 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 20 08-048 filed by Victor Muskat for 2215 Old 21 Novi Road, do you swear or affirm to tell 22 the truth in this case? 23 MR. KAPELCZAK: I do. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Now you can
73 1 state your name and address and go ahead and 2 proceed with your case. 3 MR. KAPELCZAK: Joe Kapelczak, JCK & 4 Associates at 8615 Commerce representing Mr. 5 Muskat this evening in this case for the 6 variance of the setbacks for the parking. 7 Last evening the City Council approved 8 all the engineering issues that you see in 9 this plan. This happens to be in a very old 10 neighborhood of Novi. The building is, 11 let's say as old as I am. And I am glad to 12 see it in pretty -- 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Twenty-two years 14 old then or something? 15 MR. KAPELCZAK: More like about 65. 16 And, also this case, in fact, when I 17 represented the City of Novi probably about 18 20 years ago it was in front of a judge in 19 the circuit court and the judge -- as you 20 see these buildings are outside the 21 right-of-way, and the judge granted that 22 portion of the right-of-way to the owners. 23 So, these buildings are basically on their 24 own property even though they are in public
74 1 right-of-way. And Mr. Muskat now wants to 2 refurbish this building and get this 3 building into a use and get it into 4 compliance inside the building as well as 5 outside. 6 And what happens is -- 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Sir, if could 8 you speak into the microphone or if you want 9 to use the graphics we can use that 10 microphone too. 11 MR. KAPELCZAK: Sure. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We just want to 13 make sure we get everything on the record. 14 Go ahead. 15 MR. KAPELCZAK: Anyway, this 16 building he wants to bring everything into 17 compliance to get this building in use. The 18 parking was in adequate, so, basically what 19 we said to the, came to the Building 20 Department and Planning Department and we 21 told them what the use is that we probably 22 will bring into this building And they said, 23 well, we need between six and eight parking, 24 and we ended up, well, we can fit seven in
75 1 here. What really happens in here, in this 2 case the Ordinance requires that you have a 3 20-foot setback from the right-of-way line. 4 As you can see the line that is drawing in 5 there and where the building is over the 6 right-of-way line. 7 So, what we did with Ben Croy through 8 the Engineering Department, we designed two 9 front parking areas with a walkway that will 10 be built adjoining that building, a concrete 11 walkway for the future possible walkway that 12 the City of Novi may put through this area, 13 although it's doubtful because they put all 14 the walkway on the opposite side of road on 15 the west side of Novi Road several years 16 ago. I think about 10 years ago. 17 So, the last variance that we need is 18 the variance for the 20-foot setback from 19 the right-of-way line for this parking. As 20 you see, there are buildings to the rear of 21 this, and we have to keep fire lanes open. 22 So, this was, between the City Engineering 23 Department and us, some of the best way to 24 put the parking in and this is our last
76 1 variance. 2 So, if you have any other questions, 3 Mr. Muskat is here, I am here. And we'll 4 answer anything that you have other than we 5 do need the variance to get this building 6 into compliance and get it into use. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Excellent. 8 Thank you very much for that presentation. 9 And I will ask Madam Secretary if you could 10 read any correspondence into the record. 11 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 12 08-048, 67 notices were mailed. Two 13 approvals and one objection. The first one 14 is, "The city should not hesitate to grant 15 this variance." Ted March on Clermont. 16 Second one is, "My mother and I have 17 owned the vacant property directly across 18 the street from the Petitioner since 1986. 19 We request that the Zoning Board of Appeals 20 deny their request to allow parking in the 21 required front parking setback. Low end 22 parking in this area is a major safety 23 concern as it has been in front of the party 24 store across the street adjacent to our
77 1 property. The amount of vehicles that use 2 this road as a cut through to Walled Lake 3 and the number of pedestrians must be a 4 consideration including the potential 5 liability to the City of Novi. Thank you." 6 From Rodger Jacob on Lake Front. 7 Those are the two -- last one is, 8 "2215 was a salon for years. This end of 9 Novi needs more than empty lots and weeds. 10 Let's have a new business." From T. Malicki 11 (ph) on Austin. That's it. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Madam 13 Secretary. Is there anyone in the audience 14 that wishes to make a comment on this case? 15 Seeing none, we'll close the opportunity for 16 public comments and open it up to the 17 Building Department for any comments. 18 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer, 19 through the Board, I would like to bring to 20 the Board's attention that you do have a 21 memo in your packet that shows you what the 22 City Council did approve yesterday on the 23 variances requested to the design and 24 construction standards.
78 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Ms. 2 Working, as always. You had to get that 3 together today too for us? 4 Any other comments from you guys? Mr. 5 Fox? 6 MR. FOX: Just for clarification. 7 Plan Review Center has stated that this 8 property is currently a pre-existing legal 9 nonconforming piece of property. What the 10 proposed tenant is trying to provide is a 11 benefit to their existing property. They 12 are paving an existing unpaved parking lot 13 and providing for barrier free working which 14 doesn't exist currently on the site. 15 Also, they will be directing traffic 16 at a one way pattern through there to try to 17 reduce some of the issues with backing out 18 into traffic in that area. They are not 19 proposing to do any additional parking 20 issues or create any additional parking 21 issues for that site. Thank you. 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Mr. 23 Fox. Seeing no other comments from you 24 guys, I'll open it up for Board discussion.
79 1 Just to clarify. This wasn't in front of 2 Planning at all, correct? 3 MS. WORKING: It was reviewed by City 4 Planner -- 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Because of the 6 new member. I know Mr. Wrobel is well aware. 7 I just want to make sure that Brian was 8 aware of having to recuse himself during 9 cases that he might have already seen, Mr. 10 Burke. 11 MS. WORKING: Just City Council. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. Board 13 Members? Mr. Shroyer? 14 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you. To the 15 City. They only need four parking spaces 16 and one handicap? Am I reading the site 17 plan correctly? 18 MR. KAPELCZAK: We have seven, sir. 19 MEMBER SHROYER: Two in front, I 20 assume that was the loading zone. That's 21 parking as well? 22 MR. KAPELCZAK: That's parking. There 23 are two in front and then five on the side. 24 And one handicap barrier free on the side.
80 1 MEMBER SHROYER: How many employees 2 would be in the building? 3 MR. KAPELCZAK: It can go from two 4 chairs to three chairs if they do put the 5 salon in with a receptionist in that area. 6 And that's why we have the seven. 7 MEMBER SHROYER: Where are the 8 customers going to park? 9 MR. KAPELCZAK: Well, with two chairs, 10 that's all they really need. They would 11 only have maybe three people in there at the 12 most. Two to three people would be at the 13 most. What they are looking at right now is 14 two chairs. 15 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. That's not in 16 our purview. I know there is no on street 17 parking permitted on Old Novi Road in that 18 area. 19 MR. KAPELCZAK: That's right. 20 Actually, if you really look at the plan 21 there is a piece of asphalt that is in there 22 right now. There is a tremendous amount of 23 loading and unloading that is right there on 24 that side of the street that very dangerous
81 1 that will be taken away when this site plan 2 is developed. That is a big problem that is 3 in that area right now. 4 MEMBER SHROYER: So, if you have two 5 chairs, a receptionist, somebody loading, 6 that's four. 7 MR. KAPELCZAK: You have got three 8 people working and then you have got room 9 for four customers. 10 MEMBER SHROYER: But if somebody is 11 unloading -- 12 MR. KAPELCZAK: Well, the unloading 13 won't be there. When I said unloading, that 14 unloading took place for the store that was 15 across the street. 16 MEMBER SHROYER: I just thought there 17 would be supplies delivered to this 18 location. 19 MR. KAPELCZAK: The supplies that 20 would go into a salon are very minimal. 21 MEMBER SHROYER: Like I said, that's 22 not really in our purview I was just kind of 23 -- that's why I was curious, with it not 24 going to the Planning Commission because I
82 1 am sure they would have been asking about 2 the parking situation. 3 So, I want to go back to the City. Is 4 there anyone with the City that has reviewed 5 this and everything is okay parking wise? 6 MS. WORKING: You have city Planner 7 Karen Reinowski's Plan Review Center report 8 in your hand. The full document is in the 9 file where she categorizes out all the 10 review standards and whether they were met 11 or not. So, Linda Krieger could pull that 12 if you really needed that information. 13 MEMBER SHROYER: It's not necessary. 14 I just didn't want to forward with the 15 program here if we were going to end up 16 having to backtrack. 17 Is there going to be lighting in the 18 parking lot? 19 MR. KAPELCZAK: Yes, there is one 20 light, if I am not mistaken. It's there on 21 that post in the front. Right by the front 22 door. 23 MEMBER SHROYER: So, actually that 24 would be shielded by the building from the
83 1 other existing houses in this surrounding 2 area? 3 MR. KAPELCZAK: That's correct. 4 That's correct, sir. 5 MEMBER SHROYER: If this is not 6 approved, what is your alternate plan? 7 Would you be looking at moving the park to 8 the rear? 9 MR. KAPELCZAK: I would say if it's 10 not approved that building is probably going 11 to be what it is right now. Nothing. 12 MEMBER SHROYER: I believe that's all 13 the questions I have for now. Thank you, 14 Mr. Chair. 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 16 Member Shroyer. 17 Other Board Members? Mr. Burke? 18 MEMBER BURKE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 19 Looking at Karen Reinowski's planning 20 review listing the three items that were 21 needed for the Planning Department's 22 recommendation. And she also states in here 23 that if any of the three variances are not 24 approved the site would need to be
84 1 redesigned to meet the standards. 2 And I think last night City Council 3 they approved the design and construction 4 standard variance for the parking in the 5 right-of-way and the lack of sidewalk 6 access. To paraphrase, one of the City 7 Council members, I think it was Kim Capello 8 who said it's making the best out of a bad 9 parcel. The last portion that needs to be 10 taken care of is this zero front yard 11 setback. I believe it goes to Planning 12 Commission tomorrow and they will deal with 13 parking spaces if they see fit. Is that 14 correct? 15 MR. KAPELCZAK: That's correct. 16 MEMBER BURKE: I mean, so, I support 17 this because it makes sense. It's the best 18 thing that you can do with this piece of 19 property. And given that it's legally 20 non-compliant now and we are going to 21 maintain that it's legally non-compliant, I 22 do support this. 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 24 Member Burke.
85 1 I would also echo those sentiments. 2 This is just an odd lot configuration and I 3 think doing something with it is better than 4 doing nothing with it. I think you have 5 done the best that you can with what you 6 have in front of you. The City has stated 7 there is no increase in fire or public 8 safety danger. It's a benefit to the 9 surrounding area. So, I would actually be 10 willing to make a motion if there is no 11 other discussion. 12 That in case number: 08-048 filed by 13 Victor Muskat of 2215 Old Novi Road that the 14 Zoning Board grant the Petitioner's request 15 as stated given that they have established 16 the practical difficulty. That the setback 17 and lot configuration unreasonably prevent 18 the use of property for the permitted 19 purpose. The variance will provide 20 substantial injustice to petitioner and the 21 surrounding areas. It will actually be a 22 benefit to the surrounding areas. 23 The City has maintained that there 24 will be no increase in safety concerns to
86 1 the general public and it is within the 2 spirit of the Zoning Ordinance. 3 MEMBER BURKE: Second. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 5 motion by Member Fischer and a second by 6 Member Burke. 7 Any other discussion? Seeing none, 8 Ms. Working, will you please call the roll. 9 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Burke? 12 MEMBER BURKE: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe. 14 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 16 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI? Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 20 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: And Member Bauer? 22 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve passes 24 7-0.
87 1 MR. KAPELCZAK: Thank you. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Your variance 3 has been granted. Best of luck. I look 4 forward to seeing the things that go in 5 there. 6 At this time we're about two minutes 7 short, but let's go ahead and take just a 8 five minute break until 8:35 we will 9 reconvene. 10 (A recess was held.) 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Let's go ahead 12 and move to number two under new business. 13 Case number: 08-049 filed by Chris Hett for 14 25300 Beck Road. 15 Is the Petitioner here? 16 MR. HETT: He is. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right. 18 Petitioner is requesting one 5.2 foot rear 19 yard setback variance for the construction 20 of a proposed addition to an existing home 21 located at said address. Property is zoned 22 R-A and is located east of Beck, south of 23 Eleven Mile Road. If you can raise your 24 hand and be sworn in by our Board Secretary.
88 1 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number 2 08-049 filed by Chris Hett for 25300 Beck 3 Road, do you swear or affirm to tell the 4 truth in this case? 5 MR. HETT: I do. 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: State your name 8 and address and go ahead and proceed with 9 your case. 10 MR. HETT: My name is Christopher T. 11 Hett. I reside at 25300 Beck Road, Novi, 12 Michigan. I am resident here and I am 13 seeking a 5 foot 2 inch setback on the rear 14 of an addition that I am proposing. The 15 reason I need the setback is due to the 16 thinness of the lot. We are tearing off 17 part of the house that can only go so far to 18 the left and the driveway coming to the 19 right and swooping down along that right 20 property line, so that the space, so that 21 the space confers with the driveway. The 22 space is definitely needed to finish the 23 plan inside the house due to the house only 24 being 1,000 square foot at the time. So,
89 1 that's what I am seeking. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other 3 comments? Not at this time? 4 MR. HETT: No. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will ask the 6 Board Secretary to read any correspondence 7 into the record. 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 9 08-049, 27 notices were mailed and zero 10 approvals and zero objections. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is there anyone 12 in the audience who wishes to make a comment 13 in this case? 14 Seeing none, I will go ahead and turn 15 it over to the Building Department or City 16 officials. 17 MR. FOX: We have looked at this 18 project and our recommendation is that the 19 possibility that some of this space in the 20 garage downstairs could be reduced to 21 minimize the variance. Possibly that the 22 addition may be able to be moved forward a 23 little bit to bring it into full compliance 24 with the Ordinance. Thank you.
90 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will open it 2 up for Board discussion. Member Sanghvi? 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Go evening? 4 MR. HETT: How are you doing? 5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: How large 6 is your lot? 7 MR. HETT: My lot is I believe about 8 179 by 169 deep, I believe. 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: What is 10 going to be the total size of your new 11 addition? 12 MR. HETT: I believe around 2,000 13 square feet. 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: All on one 15 level? 16 MR. HETT: It will be all on one 17 level, yes. 18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: All you 19 need is 5.2 feet in the rear yard. What's 20 behind you? 21 MR. HETT: Woods area. A neighbor is 22 behind, but it's a thick wooded area along 23 to the right side which is a wetland area to 24 the south.
91 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Do you need 2 to cut any woods there at all to do this? 3 MR. HETT: No, zero. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. 5 I have no problem with this. Thank you. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Other Board 7 Members? Member Krieger? 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: I agree. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 10 Member Krieger. Short and concise, I like 11 it. 12 I will ask. The City has discussed 13 being able to either remove some of the 14 space in the rear or move it forward. What 15 do you take on that recommendation? Why 16 might not it be possible? 17 MR. HETT: Well, to bring the house 18 any far forward is differently going to 19 change everything on the front setback, I 20 would imagine. To take it to the rear of 21 the home, the existing home as it sits right 22 now is -- the proposed 5 foot 2 inch 23 addition off the back south side of the 24 house is not going to even encroach on the
92 1 addition that is already back there. I can 2 put a few pictures up to give you a visual. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If you wish. If 4 we can get any of the lights turned. 5 MR. HETT: The house is not flat in 6 the back. It has, in the middle it has what 7 would be considered an addition which is a 8 little sitting room back there and that 9 leads out to the deck that swoops around the 10 whole back of the house. That is the 11 addition right there that goes, that's right 12 is line with my neighbors who kind of 13 encroach 16 feet beyond my addition or 14 beyond what I already have there. 15 Now, my 5 feet won't come out all the 16 way to this addition that's already existing 17 which would put it more in sync more 18 aesthetically and would work out great for 19 me. It works out great for being able to 20 come in the driveway, swoop down and around 21 and have plenty of space in the back as well 22 as where the two and a half car garage would 23 been and then a little swerve possibly to 24 the right which is what would work out being
93 1 closer to the road. Because we are so close 2 to the road already it just, it puts me 3 back a little ways. It starts everything 4 back a little ways. So, that's why having 5 the 5 foot 2 inches really puts the plan we 6 finally got together into play. If you will 7 accept it. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It appears that 9 the deck actually goes further. 10 MR. HETT: Oh, yes. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: As you guys 12 stated moving it forward would aesthetically 13 give it a (unintelligible). I am in support 14 of the variance request. 15 Member Shroyer? 16 MEMBER SHROYER: To the City. Is this 17 already a nonconforming structure with it 18 being only 41 feet and the rear yard not 19 having a 50 foot setback? 20 MR. FOX: Yes, it is. The existing 21 house is already nonconforming. 22 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay, I thought it 23 was. I don't have a problem since the house 24 is already nonconforming. And actually the
94 1 addition isn't as nonconforming. I know 2 that's not a real word or statement. But 3 less nonconforming than what the house is. 4 I don't have a problem with it either. 5 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: That sounded 7 very good, Member Shroyer. It seems like 8 we're all going in the general direction. 9 Do you care to advance our meeting along? 10 Did you care to make a motion? 11 MEMBER SHROYER: I wasn't prepared for 12 this one. I can. I can try with your help. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We'll be here to 14 help. 15 MEMBER SHROYER: In case number: 16 08-049 filed by Chris Hett for 25300 Beck 17 Road, move to approve the variance as 18 requested. 19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Second. 20 MEMBER SHROYER: You want some 21 findings? 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: No, it's 23 okay. 24 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes, I thought
95 1 Robin had said it. This is based on the 2 closeness of the house. The nonconforming 3 existing house to the street, to the 4 existing street. The narrowness of the 5 property. This does provide substantial 6 justice to the Petitioner and surrounding 7 property owners whereas it will increase the 8 property values. The problem is not self 9 created and does not create any fire danger 10 or public safety problems. 11 VICE CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Now can I 12 say second? 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Do you agree 14 with all the amended changes? 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes, thank 16 you. I just wanted to make one comment. 17 And that is, all this is become 18 nonconforming because City changed the code, 19 not because their house was nonconforming. 20 MEMBER SHROYER: Right. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 22 motion by Member Shroyer and a second by 23 Member Sanghvi. Ms. Working, please call 24 the roll.
96 1 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 2 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 6 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Burke? 8 MEMBER BURKE: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 12 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 14 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve passes 16 7-0. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Your variance 18 has been granted. Best of luck. It looks 19 great. 20 MR. HETT: Thank you. Take care, 21 guys. 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: That moves 23 us along to case number: 08-050 filed by 24 Angela Arcori of Signature Associates for
97 1 43223 Twelve Mile Road. The Petitioner is 2 requesting one variance to allow additional 3 16 square foot real estate sign located at 4 along the Twelve Oaks Mall ring road for 5 Hagopian Building located at said address. 6 The Petitioner has an approved real 7 estate leasing sign for this property along 8 Twelve Mile. The property is zoned R-C and 9 located south of Twelve, east of Novi Road. 10 And if you will please raise your hand 11 and be sworn in by our Board Secretary. 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number 08-050 13 filed by Angela Arcori of Signature 14 Associates, do you swear or affirm to tell 15 the truth in this case? 16 MS. ARCORI: Yes. 17 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: State your name 19 and address and proceed with the case. 20 MS. ARCORI: Sure. Angela Arcori and 21 I am with Signature Associates in One Town 22 Square, Southfield, Michigan representing 23 Edmond Hagopian who owns the property at 24 43223 Twelve Mile Road in your very own
98 1 Novi, Michigan. 2 I have been marketing this property, 3 there is about 18,000 square feet on the 4 first floor of this building that's 5 available for over six months now. We all 6 know in today's economy to hang a sign and 7 hope to make a deal is like finding a needle 8 in a hay stack. So, we began marketing this 9 property and said we don't need a sign. I 10 will make the appropriate calls both to 11 national and local tenants and see if we can 12 get someone to bite. 13 Well, I have done that and made calls 14 and gone to trade shows and we're at the 15 point now where I have gone to Mr. Hagopian 16 and said, is there any chance we can put 17 signs out? Obviously he did not want the 18 signs to affect his business because he is 19 an occupant on the second level of this 20 building. He said, sure, let's get signs 21 out. Let's do whatever it takes. I got to 22 get someone in here. I love to have two 23 signs, one on ring road that faces Twelve 24 Oaks Mall to capture that audience and
99 1 another sign on Twelve Mile Road to capture 2 the traffic that travels that way. And that 3 is why I stand before you. 4 We're not picky what's on the signs or 5 really the size. I just want some type of 6 presence to see if we can attract some 7 attention that way. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Madam Secretary, 9 will you please read any correspondence. 10 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number 11 08-050, 14 notices were mailed and zero 12 approvals and zero objections. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is there anyone 14 in the audience that wishes to make a 15 comment on this case? Seeing none, I will 16 turn it over to the Community Development 17 Department or City. 18 MR. FOX: Staff does not typically 19 support a variance request like this for an 20 additional sign, however, the Board is 21 inclined to grant the variance for this one. 22 We would like you to know that they do have 23 an existing approved sign for this property, 24 but due to the lack of the setback -- or due
100 1 to the setbacks and the great change between 2 one side of the building and the other, 3 there is no real visibility of one sign from 4 both sides of that particular property. 5 Thank you. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you very 7 much. Board Members? Member Shroyer? 8 MEMBER SHROYER: Some points of 9 clarification here. First of all, in the 10 packet that we received, the very first 11 paragraph it states that they are requesting 12 one 16 square foot wall sign. 13 MS. WORKING: Through the Chair, 14 Members of the Board, that was clarified to 15 you and you were provided a new packet cover 16 sheet in your meeting file for today. 17 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. I didn't pull 18 that out. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Point one for 20 Robin. 21 MEMBER SHROYER: Was it advertised 22 properly? 23 MS. WORKING: Yes, it was. The agenda 24 is also properly posted on the web with the
101 1 ground sign. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Did we receive 3 an e-mail about this? 4 MS. WORKING: We did, but I don't 5 believe Mr. Shroyer was participating in 6 e-mails anymore. 7 MEMBER SHROYER: I am not allowed to 8 get e-mails. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I know Mr. 10 Shroyer is having some issues with e-mail. 11 But I wanted a point of clarification. 12 MS. WORKING: Maybe if he has an 13 E-phone we might be able to hook up. 14 MEMBER SHROYER: The main reason was 15 to make sure that it was advertised properly 16 because if it wasn't, obviously we would 17 have an issue. 18 Now, the other clarification that I 19 need from Ms. Arcori. On the drawing that 20 we received, we look at one sign, but down 21 in the lower right hand corner there is a V 22 which appears that you are looking for two 23 signs. So, I need some clarification. Are 24 those two signs?
102 1 MS. ARCORI: It's one sign that's in 2 the shape of a V. We have two choices. We 3 can do a flat sign or we can do V signs. V 4 signs are just to -- they're better seen. 5 MEMBER SHROYER: Mr. Amolsch? 6 MR. AMOLSCH: Through the Chair, this 7 has been discussed with the Applicant, and 8 as long as it is not more than two feet 9 apart at the base of the V that's regarded 10 as one sign area. It they spread it out any 11 farther than two feet then it's regarded as 12 a two sign area. And it's a variance in 13 size. 14 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay, great. I just 15 want to make sure everybody is on the same 16 page with that. Those are the only 17 questions I have. I am not opposed to this 18 primarily for the reason that you can't see 19 the one sign from the other. And there is 20 two definite roads that front this property. 21 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you. Was 23 it your intent to keep it within the 24 two feet?
103 1 MS. ARCORI: Absolutely. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I just wanted 3 that clarified. I don't see any other 4 issues either. The elevation provides a 5 unique circumstance with the property. It 6 also faces two thoroughfares. 7 So, if there is no other discussion, I 8 will go ahead and make a motion that in case 9 number: 08-050 filed by Angela Arcori of 10 Signature Associates that we grant the 11 Petitioner's request as stated for the 12 timeframe of -- how long are you looking 13 for? 14 MS. ARCORI: Hopefully I find a tenant 15 very soon. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right. How 17 about one year? 18 THE WITNESS: One year sounds good. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: For the 20 time frame of one year given that Applicant 21 has established practical difficulty in the 22 elevation of the property in question as 23 well as the fact that the property faces two 24 thoroughfares and that the variance request
104 1 will do substantial justice to this 2 Applicant and to those surrounding 3 properties. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There was a 6 motion by Chairman Fischer and a second by 7 Member Bauer. 8 Any further discussion? Member 9 Shroyer? 10 MEMBER SHROYER: I'm sorry. I just 11 want to make one quick comment. Signature 12 Associates has been very consistent in 13 applying for signs that are within the 14 Ordinance size wise and I wanted to make a 15 statement that we appreciate that. It makes 16 our job a lot easier. 17 MS. ARCORI: We all have to work on 18 the same team. Thank you for that. I will 19 pass the message along. Thank you. 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Very well 21 stated. 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Can I just 23 make a friendly amendment? 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Absolutely.
105 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: In the time 2 period or if it is it leased earlier? 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes, correct. I 4 would agree with that amendment. 5 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Bauer, do 7 you agree as well? 8 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right. Any 10 other discussion? Seeing none, Ms. Working, 11 please call the roll. 12 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 14 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 15 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 16 MS. WORKING: Member Burke? 17 MEMBER BURKE: Yes. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 19 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes. 24 MS. WORKING: And Member Shroyer?
106 1 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve passes 3 7-0. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You have been 5 approved for one year or if it leased 6 earlier. Best of luck to you guys. 7 MS. ARCORI: Thank you. Thank you for 8 your time. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you. 10 We will go ahead and call case 11 number: 08-051 filed by Dave Dismondy of 12 1181 West Lake Drive. The Petitioner is 13 requesting five variances for the 14 construction of a proposed addition to an 15 existing home for the construction of a 16 proposed attached garage to be located at 17 said address. Petitioner is requesting one 18 of the variances to allow an accessory 19 structure to be located in the front yard. 20 The property is zoned R-4 located east 21 of West Lake Drive and north of Northhaven 22 Street. 23 So, if you can please be sworn in by 24 our Secretary.
107 1 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 2 08-051 do you swear or affirm to tell the 3 truth in this case? 4 MR. DISMONDY: I do. 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If you will 7 state your name and address and proceed with 8 the case. 9 MR. DISMONDY: Dave Dismondy, 1181 10 West Lake Drive, Novi, Michigan 48377. Just 11 to kind of go along here. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Go ahead and 13 tell us what's going on and tell us any 14 unique circumstances that you want us to 15 take into consideration. 16 MR. DISMONDY: If you could look at 17 the aerial photo. The house is located on a 18 really unique piece of property in Novi. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Do you have a 20 copy? 21 MR. DISMONDY: I do. 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If you want to 23 put it on the overhead too, that might help 24 us and those at home.
108 1 MR. DISMONDY: Oh, I'm sorry. I 2 forgot it was on TV. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I'm sure the 4 ratings aren't very high, so don't get too 5 nervous about that. 6 MR. DISMONDY: I want to zoom in for 7 the cameras here. Is that okay? 8 MEMBER SHROYER: Everybody that's 9 anybody is watching this show. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I feel like 11 I'm on the beach already. 12 MR. DISMONDY: Yes. 13 (Interposing)(Unintelligible). 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I'm sorry. Go 15 ahead. 16 MR. DISMONDY: This house right here 17 is the final home on the peninsula. So, to 18 get to that home you have to drive along 19 this driveway and that's what makes this 20 property really unique, and there is water 21 on both sides. So, what we are requesting 22 to do is take this existing home and not 23 change the footing at all, but just go up 24 another story on it. It's an existing one
109 1 and a half story, we just want to make it 2 two and a half. And 3 also, since this piece right here, there is 4 no garage for this property currently. 5 Right now when people come over there is 6 enough parking there for about eight cars. 7 We just want to put a two car garage there 8 as well. So, the reason there are so many 9 variances being requested is four of the 10 variances the home is already out of, 11 already out of variance. And then when you 12 put the garage on it that's going to do the 13 total land percentage piece. That is really 14 the only real, I guess -- 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: New variance? 16 MR. DISMONDY: Yes. Sorry. New 17 variance. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other 19 comments you wish to add at this time? Or 20 you can wait for our questions. 21 MR. DISMONDY: I will wait for 22 questions. Thanks. 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Madam Secretary, 24 let me give you the file and please read any
110 1 correspondence into the record. 2 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number 3 08-051, 82 notices were mailed. Zero 4 approvals and zero objections. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is there anyone 6 in the audience that be wishes to make a 7 comment on this case? Seeing none, I will 8 turn it over to the Community Development 9 Department or City. 10 MR. FOX: The existing property has a 11 pre-existing nonconforming structure on it, 12 the existing house. As the Petitioner has 13 stated, they are intending to not increase 14 any of the setback requirements or the 15 existing setback issues for the existing 16 house. They want to go straight up off of 17 that existing house and not to increase the 18 non-conformity on the property based on 19 that. However, they are asking to put a 20 detached garage on this property which would 21 increase the non-conformity for the fact 22 that it would be in the front yard which is 23 not allowed by Ordinance and also that it 24 takes it over the maximum allowable lot
111 1 coverage area for the property. 2 It is worth mentioning that because 3 there is an ingress, egress easement running 4 through the middle of the property they 5 cannot construct a garage attached to the 6 existing house. Otherwise it would sit on 7 top of the egress easement and there would 8 be no access to the property at the end of 9 the lot. Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Mr. 11 Fox, and I will turn it over for Board 12 discussion. 13 Member Sanghvi? 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you, 15 sir. First, congratulation on trying to do 16 something to that building out there. 17 MR. DISMONDY: Thank you. I 18 appreciate that. 19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: I have been 20 there. I have seen that and we have seen 21 the whole area change over a period of 22 years. Anything you do to make improvements 23 to that area I think is an asset to that and 24 of the City which has always been a
112 1 relatively depressed area in the past in the 2 past 25, 30 years I am talking about, before 3 your time. So, I am glad you are doing what 4 you are doing. 5 My only question is, are you going to 6 block anybody's view by going higher up? 7 MR. DISMONDY: No, we're not. 8 Because -- I don't know how to answer that 9 to be honest with you. It's not in anybody's 10 viewpoint I guess. We're not going towards 11 the water more, so it's not going to cut off 12 the view from either neighbor adjacent to 13 us. That's why they are actually really 14 happy that we are doing what we're doing. 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: I know, I 16 have seen it and I don't think you are 17 likely to, but I want people watching this 18 to know that you are not going to block 19 anybody's view. 20 MR. DISMONDY: Oh, okay, yeah. 21 Exactly, we are not blocking anyone's view. 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Great. 23 Thank you. 24 MR. DISMONDY: Okay, thank you.
113 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you, 2 Mr. Chair. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Burke? 4 Thank you, Mr. Sanghvi. 5 MEMBER BURKE: I have a lot on a lake 6 that's very narrow and it's very difficult 7 to build. It's very difficult to improve. 8 And I always have an argument on which is 9 the front lot. And it's further compounded 10 on this because there is a lake on both 11 sides. I think actually in my case the 12 front lot is actually the road and the lake 13 is the backyard. However, I support this. 14 I mean, there is absolutely -- the variances 15 that we're asking for here, eight feet on a 16 rear yard, one foot on the side yards. We 17 mailed at how many? Eighty-two? 18 MEMBER KRIEGER: Eighty-two. 19 MEMBER BURKE: Eighty-two. And his 20 neighbors on either side got one for sure 21 and they didn't send it back with any 22 complaints nor are they here today as part 23 of the public forum, so I would support that 24 side yard. And then a seven percent
114 1 increase in the lot just because we're going 2 to -- the biggest footprint on the lot -- I 3 mean, the footprint of the lot is going to 4 increase by seven because we're adding the 5 garage. I support this, I really do. Thank 6 you. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 8 Member Burke. I echo both previous 9 speakers' comments. I think as you stated, 10 most of the variance are actually deceiving. 11 That most of them are already in place to 12 begin with. 13 As Member Sanghvi stated, there are so 14 many changes going on on these north end of 15 the city lots that we need to be amendable 16 and having some storage space for toys and 17 whatnot is more important than not. 18 And also congratulations on your 19 first child as well. 20 MR. DISMONDY: Oh, thanks. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I read that in 22 there somewhere too. 23 I would tend to agree with this 24 variance as well.
115 1 MEMBER SHROYER: One comment to make 2 sure everybody is in the same page here. 3 The two structures on either side of the 4 proposed garage are garages, correct? 5 MR. DISMONDY: Right, they are. Yes. 6 MEMBER SHROYER: So, we're really not 7 being inconsistent with what's already 8 existing there anyway. 9 MR. DISMONDY: Right. 10 MEMBER SHROYER: So, I support it 11 fully as well. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right, then, 13 I will go ahead and move that in case number 14 08-051 filed by Dave Dismondy of 1181 West 15 Lake Drive that we grant the Petitioner's 16 request as requested given that the 17 Petitioner has established practical 18 difficulty. 19 That the setback and the frontage 20 being a lake lot as well as the narrowness 21 of the property unreasonably prevent the use 22 of the property. They also have established 23 that the footprint of the main structure 24 will not be changed. This variance will do
116 1 substantial justice to this Petitioner as 2 well as surrounding owners as any 3 improvements to that area are welcomed and 4 actually increase property values. There is 5 no increased danger of fire or public 6 safety. And the spirit of the Zoning 7 Ordinance is observed. 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Second. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 10 motion and a second by Member Sanghvi. 11 Any further discussion? Seeing none, 12 Ms. Working, please call the roll. 13 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 18 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 20 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: Member Burke? 22 MEMBER BURKE: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 24 MEMBER IBE: Yes.
117 1 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 2 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Motion to grant the 4 variances passes 7-0. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Your variance 6 has been granted. Best of luck to you guys. 7 MR. DISMONDY: Thank you very much, 8 guys. We appreciate it. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right. 10 Moving along to other matters. First off we 11 would like to go ahead and welcome our 12 newest member, Member Burke. Wayne Wrobel 13 did an excellent job, but as you may have 14 heard, many of us have stated that a 15 Planning Commission member is an important 16 member to our Board. We like the 17 interaction and that linkage between the two 18 Boards. I think everyone agreed with that 19 at the time I stated that. So, we welcome 20 you and I am sure you will fill his shoes 21 somewhat, so. 22 MEMBER BURKE: I notice here in last 23 month's meeting and I am quoting you, "He 24 has big shoes to fill. I am sure he won't
118 1 fill them." 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I thought I said 3 strike that from the record. 4 MS. WORKING: Well, let's see, what 5 size do you wear, sir? 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Well, we know 7 one of the people that sit at home watching 8 the Zoning Board meetings is Mr. Burke. So, 9 all right. Any way, moving along. Mr. 10 Burke? 11 MEMBER BURKE: Can I just mention 12 something about that? 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes, sir. 14 MEMBER BURKE: I often wondered who 15 watches ZBA meetings or Planning Commission 16 meetings or City Council. Obviously more 17 people watch the City Council meetings or 18 Park and Rec, plus the Library Board. Those 19 are the five meetings that are televised. 20 And I had a conversation today with one of 21 our regular customers. And her young 22 95-year-old mother watches every single 23 meeting that's televised on Channel 13, and 24 has told her daughter that she has learned
119 1 so much about the City and how it works. 2 So, that really kind of took me by surprise. 3 So, for all the Trudy Herodines (ph) that 4 are out there watching television, thank you 5 for taking time out and watching your City 6 develop. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Absolutely. We 8 actually do take it very seriously. Member 9 Shroyer started a tradition of making sure 10 that we take care of the audience at home 11 such as having things put on the projector 12 and everything. So, I have tried to echo 13 those leadership abilities or things that he 14 did and I hope that any future Chair does 15 too. 16 But, any way, back to the point at 17 hand. Welcome aboard, Mr. Burke. 18 MEMBER BURKE: Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Moving to number 20 two. Rules of procedure. I will turn it 21 over to the City. 22 MS. KUDLA: Okay. You have got my 23 analysis in your packet. I am sure you have 24 had an opportunity to read it. You do have
120 1 a few options. I have named those options. 2 You can continue as we were doing 3 it, having the alternate participate up to 4 the vote. We can continue by not having the 5 alternate participate, but be here present 6 in the event that he is needed to 7 participate at some point during the 8 schedule. Or the other option would be to 9 not have the alternate present at all unless 10 we know for sure that he is going to be 11 needed. 12 I think this Board when we met to 13 discuss the regulations has expressed their 14 interest in having the alternate member have 15 experience for those times when he or she is 16 called on to participate. So, I think that 17 is something that you can take into 18 consideration when looking through the 19 options and making your decision. Some 20 choices are riskier than others, but as I 21 explained in there, there is no binding 22 Michigan law on the issue. So, it won't be 23 an argument to the court either way of 24 whether or not if a Petitioner was
121 1 objecting, whether or not the alternate 2 member's participation would or would not 3 affect the decision. 4 So, we do have leeway to go one way or 5 the other. I chose the way that I had the 6 most support that I thought argumentatively 7 in case something was challenged which would 8 be having the alternate present to be able 9 to hear everything so that in the event he 10 or she is called on, to have all the 11 necessary information. Again, like I said, 12 there is also the other option of allowing 13 the participation up to the vote. And I 14 don't think that there is support for that 15 as well. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Where does 17 the Board wish to go with this at this time? 18 Member Sanghvi? 19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you, 20 Mr. Chair. I personally very strongly 21 believe that an alternate should be able to 22 participate. I consider an alternate being 23 a position in training, and if you don't 24 participate and don't get your feet wet you
122 1 might as well be sitting at home. I would 2 rather they be here participating. And when 3 the time comes then they can vote on it if 4 necessary. So, the whole purpose of the 5 exercise of having them here is to get them 6 through the training and the process and get 7 familiar with how things are done. And for 8 those reasons I would like them to be 9 participating until such time as the vote is 10 taken. Thank you. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Other Board 12 Members? 13 MEMBER BAUER: I agree with Mr. 14 Sanghvi. 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Having come up 16 through the ranks of alternate member, I 17 would agree too that I would like to see 18 them participate through the deliberation. 19 My question on the participation until 20 deliberation, that kind of states that they 21 could ask questions during the presentation, 22 but we don't do that as a matter of forum. 23 MS. KUDLA: Right. If we did, then 24 they could. But I am looking at how it
123 1 works at trial and I know it's not directly 2 comparable -- 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Right, right, 4 right. And when you say that it's a risk. 5 Wouldn't most likely it would just be a 6 return to the Zoning Board? 7 MS. KUDLA: It would be. That's the 8 risk. That it would have to be reheard 9 again. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If the facts and 11 the motion support the decision, then it 12 would just come back here. We would knock 13 them out of it and probably make the same 14 findings of fact. 15 MS. KUDLA: Correct. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I just want to 17 establish for myself how big of a risk. 18 That doesn't sound very risky to me. 19 MS. KUDLA: Right, correct. 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other Board 21 Members? Member Shroyer? 22 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you. I don't 23 totally agree with that. I think it's great 24 to have the person here as an observer and
124 1 any time that we have an absence or a 2 recusal during the meeting, that observing 3 alternate will be sitting as a diocesan and 4 participating in the activities. My concern 5 is extending the length of the meetings. 6 And especially if we go to the route of 7 having two alternates. Now, we got two 8 additional people that may be up here 9 speaking and asking questions and 10 contributing. Not saying that that's 11 negative, I am just looking at the 12 possibility of the meetings being extended. 13 So, I am more inclined to believe that 14 it's good to have -- again, if we have two, 15 having two observers here is great. One 16 observer is fine too, but I don't know if we 17 want them all participating and opening 18 up -- and if you have two again, I will 19 bring this up, if we have two people up here 20 and one speaks in favor of and one speaks 21 against, and then, for example, let's say 22 that activity gets tabled, the very next 23 meeting, one of them is sitting in for one 24 of the voting members because of a recusal
125 1 or a vacation or absence or something, which 2 one do you put in that position? Do you 3 pick the one that was talking in favor of or 4 the one that's talking opposed? And is that 5 going to create legal issues? 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Seniority. 7 MS. KUDLA: There would be a 8 procedure. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yeah, there 10 would be a procedure. And, honestly, if I 11 might stop right there. Now that we have -- 12 I have talked with some people but not all 13 people on the Board, but now that we do have 14 the Planning Commission member and it's 15 actually been brought up by some people at 16 this table, I personally would not support a 17 second alternate at this time. And given 18 that, you know, as long as I am Chair 19 I would not push for it. Now, if the next 20 Chair wants to try to go that route, they 21 may. But that's not something that I would 22 be interested in. I think we have a great 23 dynamic as far as how many Board members we 24 have at this time and I would not want to
126 1 change that. So, I think any decisions 2 regarding the alternate should regard this 3 current setup. 4 MEMBER SHROYER: Having only one 5 alternate would resolve the majority of the 6 concerns that I have. So, I agree. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Krieger? 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: Speaking previously 9 as an alternate I did appreciate being able 10 to sit at the table and participate. That 11 helped me develop more. I am not very much 12 of a chatter box, so I guess for length of 13 meeting, that's something that you don't 14 have to worry about in my intent. I guess 15 in a future alternate I guess it would 16 depend, and then we can always do time 17 limits like they ask for people that speak 18 to the Boards. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: What if we went 20 the route of having that language put in the 21 rules and we can get that in our packet and 22 then review the entire thing at the next 23 meeting and possibly take a vote. Is the 24 Board in favor of that direction? Everyone
127 1 would say aye? 2 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any opposed? 4 All right. Member Shroyer? 5 MEMBER SHROYER: Before you move on, 6 there is a lot of other areas in here that 7 refer to two alternate members. Do we want 8 that language changed to one? 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: As stated, I'm 10 not in favor of the two alternates at this 11 point. 12 MEMBER SHROYER: Such as Section 2 13 under Membership. We could add the words up 14 to. And we would be covered. And then if 15 we added the letter S behind alternate 16 member in the place that's it's placed in 17 parenthesis. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Beth, what would 19 you suggest at that point? 20 MS. KUDLA: I think if your intention 21 is just to stay with one right now, I will 22 just change it back to one. If at some 23 point in the future that you wanted to add 24 an alternate member we can just amend the
128 1 rules again. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Like I said, new 3 administration next year could. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: I don't 5 think it is up to the Zoning Board of 6 Appeals to provide how many alternates. It 7 may be their decision -- 8 MS. WORKING: It would be the City 9 Council's -- 10 MS. KUDLA: It would ultimately -- 11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: We can only 12 make recommendation -- 13 MS. WORKING: That's true -- 14 MS. KUDLA: Right. 15 MS. WORKING: That's a valid statement 16 -- 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Absolutely. 18 MS. KUDLA: Right. 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: If we're talking 20 about rules and procedure too, on page six I 21 had a question. We had previous discussion, 22 and I don't remember exactly what we came up 23 with, but it said -- the last sentence, 24 vacancy in office. "In the event a vacancy
129 1 involves an officer of the Board, the Board 2 shall conduct an election at or before the 3 next regular meeting to fill the vacant 4 officer position from any member of the 5 Board other than the alternate." And my 6 question was, any member, would that also be 7 the Planning Commissioner member? And if 8 they did they would have a lot of work. 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: That's a 10 question well taken. And I would put the 11 regular member there instead of any member. 12 MEMBER SHROYER: I have an exception 13 for the Planning Commission member as well. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I thought that 15 was covered somewhere else. 16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: I think it 17 is. 18 MEMBER BURKE: Thank you. 19 (Interposing)(Unintelligible). 20 MEMBER SHROYER: Adding the word 21 regular would resolve that anyway. 22 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We have been 24 working on this a little bit, Brian, so just
130 1 bear with us. I am assuming you don't have 2 any comments to add, Mr. Burke? 3 MEMBER BURKE: Negative. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: In essence we 5 don't believe the Planning Commissioner 6 should hold the position of any leadership 7 post. 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: On the 9 Zoning Board. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: On the Zoning 11 Board. 12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Correct. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Do they leave at 14 different times, Mr. Burke? Different 15 terms? 16 MEMBER BURKE: No, no. 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: It is 18 nothing personal. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Actually we are 20 inserting all these rules now because of 21 that. 22 I had one other comment regarding 23 elections. I would like to see them held 24 annually in December.
131 1 MS. WORKING: What section is that, 2 Mr. Chair? 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Section 4.0. 4 And then in January the new administration 5 would take over. 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: One caveat 7 to that and that is the new appointment may 8 not be made until third week in February by 9 the Council. I think you are requiring the 10 new members to participate in the election 11 process by doing that. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, you don't 13 think it should change? 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: I don't 15 think so, no. That's one of the reasons 16 why February has been put down there. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right. I 18 was not aware of that. 19 MS. WORKING: Could you reiterate 20 that, please. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No changes to 22 Section 4.0. 23 MS. WORKING: Thank you. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other
132 1 comments at this time? We will allot more 2 time for discussion next period. I just 3 wanted to hit some broad basics. So, if we 4 could make sure that is under other matters, 5 Ms. Working. 6 MS. WORKING: Absolutely. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Last item of 8 business before the Zoning Board is the 2009 9 dates. 10 MS. WORKING: Mr. Chair, I would also 11 respectfully request that we do one matter 12 of housekeeping after we attend to the last 13 item under other matters before we adjourn. 14 Before you you have a memo for the 15 proposed 2009 ZBA calendar dates and 16 subsequently the packet distribution dates 17 that coincide with each of those ZBA dates. 18 You will notice that the only month in the 19 year 2009 that we will not be meeting the 20 second Tuesday of the month would be in 21 March, and that's due to the Board of 22 Review. And those dates and times are 23 mandated by State Statute of when those 24 hearings need to be held. And March 17th,
133 1 was the next possible Tuesday hearing date 2 of which Chairman Fischer has already given 3 me his input regarding a St. Patrick's Day 4 meeting, but I welcome the input from the 5 rest of the Board Members. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I am also 7 inclined to not approve the change due to 8 the Board of Review considering they weren't 9 very helpful to me when I went before them 10 recently. 11 MS. WORKING: I highly advise you to 12 disregard that last statement, Members of 13 the Board. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I have no issues 15 honestly. 16 MS. WORKING: So, we can entertain a 17 motion for approval tonight or we can return 18 to this again. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It's written on 20 the website that we are the second Tuesday. 21 That's the general day that the Zoning Board 22 is. So, if we hit eleven out of twelve on 23 the second Tuesday, then there really 24 shouldn't be any issues with Board Members
134 1 or anyone else to be quite honest. 2 MEMBER SHROYER: I will move that we 3 accept the proposed calendar. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All in favor say 6 aye? 7 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: With 9 one caveat. You are allowed to bring green 10 beer on March 17th. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Dr. Sanghvi will 12 be bringing beer for us. 13 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: You are 14 wrong. 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Last piece of 16 housekeeping, number four. 17 MS. WORKING: I just wanted for the 18 benefit of Member Burke and returning Member 19 Sanghvi, we started a new policy with the 20 files that are before you. For each hearing 21 if you receive any corrected items, any 22 additionally submitted items or request from 23 the Petitioner we are asking you in addition 24 to returning those file folders to our
135 1 office to return the tabled packet 2 information in that file folder. It will 3 come back to me for me to redistribute to 4 you in the next packet for you to hear the 5 subsequent month. 6 So, those of you that are so fond of 7 the trash cans behind you, think twice 8 before you are dumping those things. That 9 way we can get them back. And we are saving 10 city resources. We are going green and 11 doing that and we are reusing our resources 12 that we have previously used. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And the Board 14 Members don't have to track for a month 15 which is great for us. 16 MS. WORKING: That's true too and I am 17 happy to do that for you. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Once again, if 19 we table any cases, be sure to return them 20 to Robin via your folder that you get. 21 So, if there is no other business 22 before the Zoning Board, I will entertain a 23 motion to adjourn. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: So moved.
136 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Second anyone? 2 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All in favor say 4 aye? 5 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 6 (The meeting was adjourned at 7 9:20 p.m.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
137 C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby certify that I have recorded stenographically the proceedings had and testimony taken in the above-entitled matter at the time and place hereinbefore set forth, and I do further certify that the foregoing transcript, consisting of (112) typewritten pages, is a true and correct transcript of my said stenographic notes.
_____________________________ Mona L. Talton, Certified Shorthand Reporter September 25, 2008
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