| View Agenda for this meeting View Action Summary for this meeting REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, February 12, 2008. BOARD MEMBERS ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: 1 Novi, Michigan 2 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 3 7:00 p.m. 4 - - - - - - 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Good evening 6 everyone. Sorry for the delay. Weather 7 related, of course. 8 Calling the meeting to order. This is 9 the Zoning Board of Appeals City of Novi 10 regular meeting, Tuesday, February 12th, 11 2008. It is 7:03 on the clock. 12 Robin, if you would call our roll for 13 the members that are present, please. 14 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 15 MEMBER BAUER: Present. 16 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Here. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Present. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Present. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 23 MEMBER KRIEGER: Here. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
4 1 MEMBER WROBEL: Present. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 3 MEMBER IBE: Present. 4 MS. WORKING: Everyone is present, Mr. 5 Chairperson. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. We 7 do have a quorum, thus this meeting is 8 official and is now in session. 9 At this time I would ask Member 10 Krieger to lead us in the pledge of 11 allegiance. 12 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge allegiance to 13 the flag of the United States of America and 14 to the Republic for which it stands, one 15 nation under God indivisible with liberty 16 and justice for all. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Now, 18 I would like the Vice-Chair to read our 19 public hearing format and rules of conduct. 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 21 Mr. Chair. A copy of the hearing format and 22 rules can be found on the front page of the 23 agenda which are in the back of the room. 24 Please make sure to turn off all cell
5 1 phones and pagers during the meeting. 2 The Applicant or Representative will 3 be asked to come forth, state their name and 4 address and be sworn in by our Secretary. 5 The Applicant will be allowed 6 five minutes to address the Board and 7 present their case. An extension may be 8 granted at the discretion of the 9 Chairperson. Anyone in the audience who 10 wishes to address the Board regarding the 11 current case will be asked by the 12 Chairperson to raise their hands and be 13 recognized. Once recognized, audience 14 members addressing the Board will be sworn 15 in and given three minutes to speak as an 16 individual or ten minutes of speaking in 17 representing a group. 18 Members of the audience will be 19 allowed to address the Board once unless 20 directly questioned by a Board Member or the 21 Chairperson. 22 The Secretary will read the number of 23 public hearing notices mailed pertaining to 24 the current case and objection and approval
6 1 notices will be entered into the record. 2 The Chairperson will ask for input 3 from the Community Development Department, 4 Ordinance Enforcement Officer and Planning 5 Department as well as the City attorney. 6 The Chair will then turn the case over to 7 the Board for discussion, clarification and 8 entertainment of a motion when and if 9 appropriate. 10 Impromptu statements from the audience 11 during discussion by the Board will not be 12 tolerated and be considered out of order. 13 A roll call vote will be taken to 14 approve or deny the motion on the table and 15 the next case will then be called. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. The 17 Zoning Board of Appeals is a hearing board 18 empowered by the Novi City Charter to hear 19 appeals seeking variances from the 20 application of Novi Zoning Ordinances. It 21 takes a vote of at least four members to 22 approve a variance request and a vote of the 23 majority present to deny a request. 24 The Board consist of seven regular
7 1 members and one alternate member. The 2 alternate member has the right to 3 participate in Board discussions and 4 hearings but may not vote except in the 5 absence or abstention of a regular Board 6 Member. 7 We have an agenda in front of us. Is 8 the agenda set to go or is there additions 9 or corrections? 10 MS. WORKING: Mr. Chairman, we do have 11 a couple of changes, please. As you are 12 aware, Men's Warehouse has requested to be 13 postponed to the March 10th meeting. You 14 had the written notification in your files 15 on the day this evening. 16 And then late this afternoon very 17 close to 5:00 I received a phone call from 18 Mr. Locricchio on behalf of Trillium 19 Village, case number four on the agenda. 20 Due to the weather he was several hours away 21 and he was very concerned that he wouldn't 22 be able to make it so he requested to be 23 postponed to the March 10th agenda. 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Motion to
8 1 approve as amended. 2 MEMBER BAUER: So moved. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a motion 4 by Member Fischer and a second by Member 5 Bauer. Please call the roll. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 7 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 8 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 10 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 11 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 12 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 14 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISHER: Aye. 16 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 17 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 19 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Motion to postpone 21 passes. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Motion to what? 23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Motion to 24 approve the agenda.
9 1 MS. WORKING: Approve the agenda, 2 excuse me. I was still on the postponement. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. We 4 have minutes from January 8th, 2008. Is 5 there any additions or corrections to the 6 minutes? 7 MEMBER BAUER: Motion to approve. 8 MEMBER FISCHER: Second. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Seeing none, we 10 have motion by Member Bauer and a second by 11 Member Fischer. 12 In this case we'll take a verbal call. 13 All in favor please say aye? 14 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Opposed same 16 sign? Okay, we have approved minutes for 17 January 8th. 18 I see on the agenda there are also 19 amendments to the December 4th minutes. 20 MS. WORKING: Members of Board, Mr. 21 Arkin who appeared before you two months ago 22 on behalf of Shiro Restaurant is requesting 23 that anywhere his name is spelled 24 mis-correctly and the address of Shiro
10 1 restaurant be corrected in the December 2 minutes. 3 MEMBER BAUER: So moved. 4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a motion 6 by Member Bauer and a second by Member 7 Krieger to correct the spellings and the 8 address of Shiro restaurant and the owner, 9 Mr. Arkin. 10 MS. WORKING: Irwin Arkin. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Irwin Arkin? 12 MS. WORKING: Correct. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And we'll take a 14 verbal on this as well. All in favor say 15 aye? 16 BOARD MEMBER: Aye. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Same sign 18 opposed? Okay, the motion has passed for 19 that as well. 20 At this time we open up the agenda to 21 the public for comments regarding any 22 activity that they care to speak to the 23 Board about with the exception of those that 24 are currently on the agenda.
11 1 So, is there anyone in the audience 2 who care to come forward and speak? Seeing 3 none, we'll close the public remarks and 4 move on to our first case. 5 6 Which is case number: 07-094 7 filed by Jeffrey Wainwright for Paradise 8 Park located at 45799 Grand River Avenue. 9 Said applicant is requesting one sign 10 variance to allow the display of multiple 11 event notices at a rate of three seconds per 12 notice for the existing illuminated ground 13 sign located at that address. The property 14 is zoned I-1 and is located south of Grand 15 River and west of Taft Road. 16 The City of Novi Code of Ordinance 17 Section 28-10 (b)(4) Prohibited Sign states: 18 The following sign shall not be permitted, 19 erected, or maintained in any district, 20 anything in this to the contrary 21 notwithstanding: (4) Animated signs as 22 defined in Section 28-1 Animated sign means 23 a sign, other than a changeable copy sign, 24 whereby the sign itself or the information
12 1 conveyed incorporates or involves action, 2 motion, scrolling messages. 3 As mentioned the Applicant is 4 requesting to display multiple event 5 messages on the approved changeable copy 6 sign at a rate of three seconds per notice 7 for Paradise Park. 8 The Applicant is present and if you 9 are not an attorney please step forward, 10 state your name and address and be sworn in 11 by our Secretary. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your right hand. 13 Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the 14 truth regarding case: 07-094? 15 MR. WAINWRIGHT: I do. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Chair, 18 one second. I just wanted to inform Robin 19 as she came in that this was not part of our 20 original packet but was given to us right 21 before the meeting. I don't have any 22 objection to taking it and reviewing it as 23 well if no other Board Members do. But I 24 did want to make you aware.
13 1 MS. WORKING: Thank you. 2 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Sorry. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 4 your case. 5 MR. WAINWRIGHT: Thank you. My name 6 is Jeffrey Wainwright and I am with Paradise 7 Park and I apologize for the delay. A 8 couple of months ago I had a little 9 aberration with my heart and it's happy now, 10 so I'm happy to be here too. 11 With that, I have prepared some 12 material for you and they did confirm that 13 the electronics part of it on the podium is 14 working so we will switch to that mode. Can 15 the white lights be brought down? 16 MS. WORKING: They should come down 17 automatically. There they go. 18 MR. WAINWRIGHT: This is the sign that 19 we are talking about at Paradise Park that 20 we would like to use in the mode of a 21 changeable copy sign, not an animated sign 22 with an update rate of three seconds per 23 message. The material I have prepared for 24 you explains what the sign would look like
14 1 and what it would not look like in that mode 2 and it will also explain the hardship and 3 necessity of why it's important in a multi 4 venue, multi event business to be able to 5 provide that level of communication to our 6 customer base and to the general public. 7 This is the sign. It's a conforming 8 sign to the conventional ordinances. This 9 is what the sign looks like on the other 10 side of the driveway. It is not a large 11 sign. It is a relatively small sign. This 12 is the sign next to a sign that you are more 13 familiar with across the street from us 14 showing the relative size of the sign to 15 make sure that it's in perspective. 16 I think a lot of time when we think of 17 changeable copy signs we tend to think of 18 the very large signs that can produce and 19 explain a great deal of media. In our case 20 that is not the direction we are going. 21 This is another sign that is a little 22 closer to this building. But it gives you a 23 relative feeling if you are familiar with 24 that sign as to the size of sign that we
15 1 have and the impact of the changeable copy. 2 What I am going to do now is, I am 3 going to show you a simulation of what this 4 sign would look like if it were to operate 5 as other signs in the area operate that have 6 changeable copy permission. And we're not 7 proposing this, but this is the information 8 that is going to be imparted on this sign 9 during this simulation is a typical day at 10 Paradise Park, the type of activities that 11 we face and it helps explain the hardship 12 and the rationale of why we would want to do 13 that. 14 I am going to go ahead and run this 15 and it will go at one second per change. 16 You can see the changeable copy. It's not 17 only distracting, but it's hard to read. As 18 I said, that was a typical application of 19 the changeable copy almost animated sign at 20 one second per message. 21 What we're proposing is a very 22 reasonable rate of three seconds per 23 message. And I want to point out. This is 24 an important point when we are thinking
16
1 about viewing something that is informative 2 with the human eyes and the human brain and 3 that we are a lot rhythmic in the way we 4 sense information in both hearing, site, 5 sound and reactions. So the effect between 6 one second per message at three seconds per 7 message is a substantial difference and you 8 will get a sense of that as I let this run 9 right now. 10 It's a very comfortable pace. It 11 avoids any sensation of flash. The very end 12 of it is an amber alert area that will soon 13 be coming to Michigan. Michigan will be 14 using a 511 emergency sequence that amber 15 alert will be part of. And people that are 16 part of that association will have that and 17 that shows that sequence. 18 What we are demonstrating is a key 19 safety and usage points with a very safe and 20 effective update rate. It's a tasteful 21 usage of the sign and that's very very 22 important. It's a comfortable reading rate. 23 No distraction at all to traffic and it does 24 not have -- at that rate there is no
17 1 flashing or blinking sensation, and that's 2 an important impediment that we want to 3 avoid. 4 So why is this necessary? Why would I 5 want to come to you and ask for this? And 6 what does Paradise Park do? Who is Paradise 7 Park? A lot of you are customers of 8 Paradise Park and some of you may not be 9 familiar with the park. So what I have 10 prepared is to help you get a sense of the 11 multi venue operation that takes place at 12 this ten acre facility as I have prepared 13 for you a sequence of snapshots of 14 activities that take place in the park. And 15 this, again, would be on a typical weekend 16 day. And this gives you a flavor of the 17 reasons why this is so important to the 18 commerce of our business. Here we go. And 19 this is also at a three second update rate. 20 Unfortunately we have no snowbound 21 activities which would be good for today. 22 Okay, thank you. 23 That's kind of important. I was hesitant to 24 show that because I didn't want it to come
18 1 across as an advertisement for Paradise 2 Park. But it's very compelling to 3 understand and important to understand that 4 truly on any given day at Paradise Park we 5 are going to have anywhere from five to 21 6 events. The most we have had is 21 events 7 taking place. In a way, we have to take a 8 role of showcasing the commerce of Novi. We 9 have yet to take that responsibility 10 seriously. 11 And here is a snapshot of some of the 12 corporate events and companies that come to 13 Paradise Park. And these companies are not 14 just Metropolitan wide. They are state wide. 15 And it give us great visibility and it 16 really expands the commerce we believe of 17 Novi. And it's a role that Paradise Park 18 takes, and even to a greater extent than 19 Rock Financial Showplace takes. We want to 20 bring meaning to Novi becoming the 21 destination location. 22 When we were campaigning in Downtown 23 Detroit to make Novi a destination to the 24 Detroit Chamber of Commerce, that's the
19 1 comment that came up, well, why is Novi a 2 destination location? Well, because we have 3 got facilities in Novi, not just the park, 4 that no other city can offer. When we look 5 at community and school events that take 6 place at the park, this gives you a good 7 reason why Novi is truly becoming a 8 destination. That's a big list. 9 That's a small part of the total list, 10 but it gives you a good sensation for it. 11 Northville Schools, The Novi Teacher's 12 Union, Milford Schools, Mercy High School,
13 Ladywood, Waterford, Livonia. It's broad 14 reaching. 15 Bridging Novi as a city for families. 16 Oftentimes people say, well, Novi is the 17 city of entertainment. No. Novi is a city 18 with families. And how do we reach that? 19 Well, that's reached through the church 20 organizations, and this is a snapshot of 21 some of the churches that use Paradise Park 22 not once, not twice, but on a continuous 23 basis to extend their fellowship. 24 Touching the hearts statewide. This
20 1 is equally important. We have to extend 2 ourselves past the City of Novi, past the 3 dimension of Grand River and we do that. We 4 touch the hearts statewide. 5 I am going to show you some of the 6 special organizations that have used the 7 park and continue to use us. And we have 8 just put a few of them up there. Michigan 9 Children Home, Juvenile Diabetes. They have 10 their fundraiser at the park. Easter Seal 11 Kids, that's a very moving thing. The Red 12 Hat Society. The Senior Weekly Miniature 13 Golf Outing. Keep in mind, and many of you 14 helped us get there when we went through 15 planning. Paradise Park is 16 100 percent handicap friendly. That is a 17 real important dimension of what we do. And 18 that's why those groups want to come to us. 19 They travel across the state to let their 20 children have fun and that's really 21 important. 22 And that last one, Autism 23 International. You want to be moved, you 24 come to the park on a day like that and you
21 1 watch those kids have fun. That's very, 2 very touching. 3 What is Paradise Park? I think you 4 got a good feel now. We are a multi venue, 5 multi function facility. We are truly a 6 part of the pulse of Novi and what we are 7 proposing with this sign is a very sensible 8 usage that everyone can benefit from. We 9 bring business that expand commerce and it 10 gives an excellent image we think to the 11 City of Novi. And we appeal to the whole 12 market. We're not a single function venue, 13 we're a multi function venue. That's a very
14 important dimension, that's why it's so 15 critical that we do this. 16 Hardships. We face some serious 17 hardships. We are a start-up operation. As 18 many of you recall, we built Paradise Park 19 from a farm and that farm was in operation 20 just four years ago. That was a major 21 operation. We faced serious hardships 22 getting ourselves stable. Our ability to 23 grow and to be successful is based on market 24 visibility and it's also based on the
22 1 quality of the product that we provide and 2 that visibility is an essential part of the 3 sign and being able to deploy that is 4 essential to our success. 5 Again, we're multi-purpose, we're a 6 multi-event facility. And it would be a 7 competitive disadvantage as it is right now 8 if we're not able to deploy the sign in a 9 sensible, safe and effective manner. And 10 that's really what we're asking for. 11 It's a small sign. It's a high 12 quality sign. We're looking for tasteful, 13 purposeful usage. Business purposes as well 14 as community purposes, something that 15 everyone can benefit from. An update rate 16 that makes sense and is very safe. And 17 that's what we're asking for. Thank you 18 very much. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. 20 Wainwright. 21 This is a public hearing. Is there 22 anyone in the audience who cares to speak on 23 this case? Please come forward, state your 24 name and address and if you are not an
23 1 attorney be sworn in by our secretary. 2 MR. VARJABIJIN (ph): My name is Harry 3 Varjabijin. I live at 45800 Grand River 4 directly across on the north side of Grand 5 River from Paradise Park. 6 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your right hand. 7 Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth 8 regarding case: 07-094? 9 MR. VARJABIJIN: I do. 10 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 11 MR. VARJABIJIN: It's a little hard to 12 follow with all of that stuff -- I hope I'm 13 not out of place. Four years ago this 14 month -- I mean, four years ago they started 15 digging to build Paradise Park. Thy tore 16 out my front yard, ruined half my driveway, 17 broke four city cement blocks. To this day 18 none of that has been repaired. 19 The reason why I am saying this, I am 20 totally against a new sign. He says 21 hardship, family. We get golf balls hit at 22 my house and my vehicles every day. I have 23 tried dealing with these people. I don't 24 get no results. That's the reason why I am
24 1 here. Maybe I'm out of line. Maybe this 2 isn't the proper place. But I have dealt 3 with other people here in the City. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Well, you came 5 in to speak your objection to the sign and 6 we understand that. The other part of the 7 case obviously we can't address in the ZBA. 8 But you are more than welcomed to voice your 9 opinion. 10 MR. VARJABIJIN: The family has owned 11 the property and lived at the property for 12 56 years. So we were here probably long 13 before a lot of people here. It's just a 14 little upsetting that he has ruined my 15 property. So I am just speaking. 16 Thank you for your time. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, sir. 18 Is there anyone else in the audience 19 who cares to come forward?
20 Mr. Wainwright, as we always do, we 21 allow the Applicant to make a comment on 22 anyone who speaks in the public hearing. Do 23 you care to comment on what was just stated? 24 MR. WAINWRIGHT: Keeping it to the
25 1 sign? 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Keeping it to 3 the sign, obviously. 4 MR. WAINWRIGHT: Certainly those 5 issues are of concern to the owners of 6 Paradise Park. We have deployed 7 construction people to replace the sidewalk 8 and do things and we mistakenly it appears 9 were under the impression that it was done
10 correctly. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Just relative to 12 the sign. 13 MR. WAINWRIGHT: Relative to the sign. 14 Certainly we will do with the sign the same 15 diligence and the same careful usage that we 16 had promised to the City when we built the 17 park and we did that. And we will follow 18 the same sincerity with this. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. At 20 this time I'll close the public hearing and 21 ask the Secretary if there is any 22 correspondence -- oh, I'm sorry, the 23 Vice-Chair? 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you,
26 1 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 38 2 notices mailed with zero approvals and one 3 objection. 4 Objection from Matthew and Annette 5 Rozaek, R-O-Z-A-E-K, 45950 West Eleven Mile 6 Road. It is an objection to and they state: 7 To approve the requested variance for an 8 animated sign will likely to improve 9 business for Paradise Park but have an 10 overall negative impact on the community. 11 There are two issues we see with this 12 type of signage. Number one, this type of 13 signage begins to change the image of Novi 14 community as presented to our residents and 15 non-residents visiting families and 16 businesses. The image would be somewhat on 17 the trashy side beginning to resemble the 18 Las Vegas strip image trying to get the 19 passerby's attention to come in and spend 20 money. 21 As Grand River continues to be expand 22 to be a main Novi artery, more and more 23 shopping and entertainment type businesses 24 will likely appear and will be looking to
27 1 utilize animated signage. Visualize what 2 Grand River might look like in ten years 3 with all the animated signs. 4 Number two, animated signs are 5 distracting to road traffic. That is their 6 purpose. Moving words embarks the sign to 7 redirect one's focus to see what it is all 8 about. Today there are too many 9 distractions for young drivers, music, 10 radio, CD players, I-pods, conversations 11 with friends, wide use of cell phones while 12 driving. Let's admit it, lack of focus or 13 attention to driving causes the majority of 14 traffic accidents we have today. Why add 15 more distractions which would likely result 16 in increased accidents. 17 Grand River has a speed of 50 miles 18 per hour, the fastest street speed except 19 for the freeway. We don't need any more 20 distractions at this speed. 21 In summary, we feel that precedence 22 set by approving this requested variance for 23 Paradise Park and later other Novi 24 businesses following this approach to
28 1 improve their business volume will increase 2 over the next five to ten years and this 3 project will negatively impact Novi's image 4 and will contribute to more frequent traffic 5 accidents. 6 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Any 8 comments from the City or -- oh, we have 9 counsel now. 10 MS. KUDLA: Sorry about that. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: No problem. 12 MS. KUDLA: Yeah, I have some 13 comments. Right now we just wanted to let 14 you know that the issue of multiple event 15 messages is going through Ordinance Review 16 Community. The proposal right now is to 17 consider one message per minute as an 18 amendment. The stage that it's at right now 19 it should be making it to the Planning 20 Commission for their input within the next 21 month. 22 At this point you could table until 23 after the Planning Commission gives their 24 input on the amendment. Given that the park
29 1 isn't open right now it shouldn't cause too 2 much of a problem for the Applicant. 3 MR. WAINWRIGHT: The park is open. 4 MS. KUDLA: Okay. The other option 5 that you could have is you could grant a 6 lesser variance. It's our understanding 7 that the City's concern right now is that a 8 sign changing as frequently as every three 9 seconds would cause a safety hazard and that 10 is something that is not something that they 11 would want to consider so far in this 12 Ordinance Review Community. 13 So, at this time I think it would be 14 either appropriate to table the matter and 15 wait for the ordinance to go through 16 community in a month or appropriate to grant 17 a lesser variance than requested. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 19 Comments from the City? 20 MR. AMOLSCH: No comments, sir. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. I 22 will turn it over to the Board for further 23 comments. Member Wrobel? 24 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
30 1 First off, should we give the Applicant an 2 opportunity to see if he wishes to table 3 this until the ordinance is updated? 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You can ask 5 that, sure. 6 MEMBER WROBEL: Would you care to 7 table this until the ordinance comes 8 through? 9 MR. WAINWRIGHT: I have had some 10 discussion with various City Council members 11 regarding that issue. Certainly the things 12 that the City is looking at regarding sign 13 application is very important and in a 14 general sense we certainly agree with that. 15 Animated signs are a world apart from 16 what we have here. We are not proposing 17 that nor would we be able to afford that 18 anyway. I think the application that we are 19 looking at at three seconds is well studied 20 and well demonstrated. I think we 21 demonstrated it quite well that it is safe. 22 It is effective. It is reasonable and it 23 avoids the sensation of flashing, the 24 sensation of scrolling and moving. Those
31 1 are the primary -- 2 MEMBER WROBEL: Excuse me, let me 3 interrupt. The question is first right now 4 before we go further, do you wish to table 5 this or not? 6 MR. WAINWRIGHT: I think not. I would 7 like to have a dialogue on it. I wouldn't 8 want to give up that completely until we 9 have had some dialogue. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Go 11 ahead, Mr. Wrobel. 12 MEMBER WROBEL: I would say first off, 13 Mr. Wainwright, I am glad you are feeling 14 better. Thank you for bringing your 15 business to Novi and it looks like you are 16 dealing with a lot of groups and doing well 17 in business. 18 That being said, to the City. I know 19 he mentioned one of other the signs of 20 changed messages. We have Rock Financial. 21 We have Miracle Software. We have Novi High 22 School and we got Moe's on Ten are the ones 23 that I know about off the top my head. At 24 what rate do those signs change now? Does
32 1 anyone know? 2 MR. AMOLSCH: We don't know. I have 3 to do a study on that. 4 MS. KUDLA: It's our understanding 5 that there is none that are as much as every 6 three seconds. 7 MR. WAINWRIGHT: Excuse me, I can 8 correct that. The Rock Financial sign which 9 is in a different zoning condition falls 10 into a different category and both signs are 11 updated at a one second rate. And you can 12 observe that. Three seconds is a, when 13 we're looking at a sign, is a substantial 14 time frame. And I think -- were you here 15 during the demonstration? 16 MS. KUDLA: No, I just got here. 17 MR. WAINWRIGHT: It is a substantial 18 difference between the one second update and 19 three seconds. One is flashing and one of 20 them you wouldn't perceive the change 21 because you would probably would never see 22 the change. 23 MEMBER WROBEL: You are applying for a 24 three second time period, yet I do not see
33 1 any data or anything other than your saying 2 so that would justify allowing it at this 3 rate. Personally to me I think it's kind of 4 fast. It almost appears like a flashing 5 thing because it's going so fast, three 6 seconds. Three seconds is not a lot of time 7 and I don't see any hard data saying, sign 8 people saying that this is why we use three 9 seconds, things of that nature. 10 Do you have anything that you can 11 bring to this case? 12 MR. WAINWRIGHT: The studies that have 13 been done have primarily been done by the 14 State of California. And the California DOT 15 did analysis at freeway speeds of 70 miles 16 per hour on what they call fast moving 17 signs. And their conclusion was and their 18 bylaws ended up being six seconds as the 19 rate that they allow on a 70 mile per hour 20 freeway. 21 Michigan has addressed it, but they 22 have never put anything into covenant as of 23 yet. 24 MEMBER WROBEL: One of the reasons you
34 1 are talking about a competitive 2 disadvantage. In that area I don't see any 3 competition for you. You are it. With the 4 sign as it is today it's very well visible. 5 We have went through this before in the 6 Planning Commission. I don't see 7 competition. I know Fountain Walk has 8 something. But that's not the same area. 9 It's not like having a MacDonald's here and 10 a Wendy's here and a Burger King here and 11 you are competing against others. In that 12 area you are the only game in town, so I 13 really don't see a competitive disadvantage. 14 Also with the hardship, I may be 15 willing to allow a slower turnover rate for 16 the messages, but I would find it very 17 difficult at this time unless my peers can 18 convince me to allow three seconds. Thank 19 you. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 21 Member Wrobel. 22 Member Sanghvi? 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 24 I am still trying to figure out what is the
35 1 purpose of this all, number one. 2 And, number two, who is going to 3 benefit from this kind of a sign and who is 4 going to be able to read a changing sign 5 that happens every three seconds? If you 6 are talking about people who are stationary 7 standing in front of it trying to figure 8 out, I can understand. If you are talking 9 about the passing traffic, I don't know how 10 long it will take to watch your sign on 11 Grand River at the speed the traffic is 12 supposed to travel. 13 At least I personally myself I don't 14 think I can comprehend anything going on 15 that fast. So, tell me why are you here in 16 the first place?
17 MR. WAINWRIGHT: The competitive side 18 of it, the disadvantage is that the 19 awareness of our business is very important 20 and a huge number of our participants see, 21 potential customers see the park are drive 22 by people. Right now we are not able to 23 deploy that multiple things that are going 24 on inside the park because the ordinance has
36 1 been addressed. It's very strict. It's 15 2 minutes I believe for update currently which 3 is not really applicable. 4 But the message that we want to get 5 out and we want to share with the sign in a 6 tasteful manner is that this is a multi 7 function, multi feature business and we 8 would like you to stop in and see what this 9 business has to offer. We are not trying to 10 advertise the special of the day or go-cart 11 rides for a dollar or something like that. 12 That's not the mission. But we do so many 13 multiple purpose events where we would have 14 church groups, city youth groups, companies 15 coming in for an event on a single day. We 16 need to share at what time those events are. 17 We need to share that they are taking place. 18 We want the people to know what's going on 19 inside Paradise Park, as much as the same 20 way it's important to know what's going on 21 if you were inside of the Expo Centers. 22 And we want the update to be 23 reasonable. We think three seconds is 24 reasonable. But as you said, in a normal
37 1 drive by, you are not going to perceive 2 every single message as you drive by, and we 3 understand that. But certainly you might 4 see a message or a different message as you 5 drove by at different times of the day or 6 perhaps two messages. And for us that's 7 very important. And we are in a hardship 8 mode. Our business is suffering. We 9 haven't met our objectives. We have yet to 10 turn ourselves to be profitable. We are 11 doing a good job, but we not just serve our 12 customers, but we have to serve the city too 13 and we have done a pretty good job of doing 14 that so far. 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 17 Member Sanghvi. 18 Member Krieger? 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: I apologize, but from 20 everything you have shown me the business 21 seems to be succeeding with all the 22 different companies that are coming to this 23 place. And I agree with the two previous 24 speakers, if I am driving 50 miles an hour
38 1 down Grand River, what am I going to pick up 2 in one second or three seconds? I am sure I 3 counted four seconds between, so I would 4 want to re-tally that amount of time. 5 So, I am having a very hard time 6 buying into this idea. I don't know what -- 7 you didn't put up there what is going to be 8 on there. You did show things but it's not 9 applicable, an Amber alert to Paradise Park.
10 And then also as Member Wayne said that the 11 area across the street is not a competitor 12 and so I agree in that respect too. So, at 13 this time I am having difficulty. Thank 14 you. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 16 Member Ibe? 17 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Wainwright, with all
18 due respect to my peers, but I disagree with 19 them. I have driven down Grand River a few 20 times since I moved to Novi. In fact I have 21 two little children. I had one of my kid's 22 best friend had a birthday party at Paradise 23 Park and we couldn't find Paradise Park. 24 So, we drove down the street twice and we
39 1 couldn't find it. I think a sign such as 2 this that points out what you really do will 3 really stand out. Grand River the area you 4 are in, granted there is no competition but 5 it looks deserted so you need something to 6 attract attention to where you are. 7 I think from a marketing and 8 advertising point of view it does make a lot 9 of sense because when you drive by you see 10 the Rock Financial Showplace it's so 11 visible. That's all you really see before 12 you go to Beck Road. So, I feel and I 13 understand exactly the point you are trying
14 to make. However, as an alternate I don't 15 have voting rights. So, I must tell you if 16 I did I would definitely recommend for an 17 approval. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You do have 19 voting rights this evening. 20 MEMBER IBE: I do? Well, I apologize, 21 I do have voting rights this evening. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Other members? 23 I would like to make a couple of comments 24 myself. You may have seen a red Pontiac
40 1 driving up and down the street five or six 2 times on a couple of different occasions. I 3 was trying to time out how long you could 4 see the sign. And the size of the sign, I 5 kind of wish the sign was larger. I know 6 that's a totally different subject. 7 MR. WAINWRIGHT: We wish it was too. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: But the letters 9 that you are talking about, the size of the 10 letters you are talking about, I counted a 11 little over five seconds from the time that 12 I could accurately read what was on it until 13 the time I reached the sign and was past it. 14 Which tells me that at three seconds a 15 change, the most I could ever see would be 16 two. 17 MR. WAINWRIGHT: Two messages. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: What concerns me 19 about that is, and going back and some of 20 the people have already hit on it, is the 21 safety factor. Especially if you are on the 22 westbound side, trying to read the sign 23 going 50 miles an hour with multiple lanes. 24 I am really concerned about the safety. I
41 1 agree with Member Wrobel that I would 2 probably be open to something that was 3 different than four times an hour. I think 4 that is excessive myself as a minimum. 5 I believe at this point that I would 6 be in favor of seeing it go to a table and 7 wait until it comes back from the Ordinance 8 Review Committee because if they come back 9 with the recommendation of one message per 10 minute, I think that's ideal. 11 And your comment about the number of 12 times that people drive by, the chances of 13 seeing a different message if it's once 14 every minute would be great, you could see 15 quite a few different messages. 16 MR. WAINWRIGHT: What's interesting is 17 we hear every day on the phone and in person 18 people say we didn't know you were here. We 19 didn't know it existed. We can't find you. 20 Keep in mind that the setback of our 21 building, primary building is about 400 22 feet, not 40 feet, about 400 feet. So that 23 sign deployment, utilization of it like you 24 are saying in a messaging manner it is an
42 1 important part of our commerce. It truly 2 matters to us. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It's a rather 4 narrow lot. It's deep but it's narrow. 5 Back to Member Sanghvi and then Member 6 Wrobel. 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. What have 8 been brought up in the discussion, your 9 primary problem appears to be finding the 10 location from what everybody is saying they 11 had trouble finding where Paradise Park is 12 rather than putting a copy and saying what 13 things are going on there. For most of the 14 people coming there it's a destination to 15 come and they need to find where the 16 destination is. So I don't know whether 17 this is going to solve any problem as far as 18 locating the place or not. 19 MR. WAINWRIGHT: It won't solve it 20 completely, you are right. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Wrobel? 22 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you. You 23 mentioned that building sits way back. What 24 makes it very noticeable and very
43 1 identifiable are the fake mountains that are 2 sitting out there in front. How far are 3 those from the road? I don't recall. 4 MR. WAINWRIGHT: Not too far. 5 Probably 80 feet maybe. 6 MEMBER WROBEL: To me that's something 7 that would identify well, gee, this is a 8 miniature golf course. No one else is going 9 to have a fake mountain sitting there. So, 10 I mean, yes, your building is back there, 11 but it's by something that's very noticeable 12 and even though the sign being kind of 13 small, you can kind of see the sign so you 14 would think, well, this is the place. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. One 16 other comment that I forgot to add. I think 17 it is important that people have the 18 opportunity to take a picture of the sign. 19 If somebody is having a birthday and it says 20 Happy Birthday, Joanna or Suzie or whatever, 21 parents like to take a picture of it. If 22 it's changing every second that's going to 23 be tough. If it's changing every three 24 seconds that would be a lot better. But to
44 1 wait 15 minutes for it to change each time, 2 that's not good enough either. Just another 3 comment. 4 Obviously I think the park is 5 wonderful. It's a great addition to the 6 city. We want to help, but we also have to 7 look at the safety factors here. 8 Any other comments from the group? 9 Member Bauer? 10 MEMBER BAUER: If you had somebody 11 trying to take a picture of that they could 12 create a very bad accident. I just want to 13 mention that. 14 My thoughts are following Mr. Wrobel 15 and Mav. Exactly the same. It's very 16 distracting. I said this about the one 17 across the street too. But I would not go 18 for it at all. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Are 20 we to the point where we could entertain a 21 motion? 22 MR. WAINWRIGHT: May I ask a question, 23 please? 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, sir, you
45 1 may. 2 MR. WAINWRIGHT: Do you have a 3 suggested rate that based on your skills and 4 knowledge that would be useable? Or is the 5 one minute maybe going to be the new 6 benchmark? We're not sign experts and the 7 sign experts we talked to, none of them 8 could give us a technically clear answer on 9 what was appropriate. 10 MS. KUDLA: At this point I don't know 11 that any other number has been discussed in 12 the Ordinance Review Community. I couldn't 13 give you that information one way or the 14 other. I just know that one minute is 15 what's being considered. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I'm not aware of 17 any. I don't have a recommendation for a 18 time frame. My reason for talking about the 19 committee is that if there is going to be 20 something forthcoming that is going to be a 21 standard for the entire city, I would rather 22 be consistent with what will be in place 23 rather than trying to make an exception here 24 this evening and then have it be different
46 1 than what the Ordinance Review Committee 2 recommends and it gets approved. 3 That's my comment on that. 4 MR. WAINWRIGHT: If I may offer and 5 with the Board's indulgence, we would 6 certainly be open to tabling until that 7 time. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Would somebody 9 care to make a motion? 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Might I add 11 at that point too, Mr. Chair, even if the 12 Ordinance Review Committee comes back and 13 says the ordinance is now one minute, this 14 Board could still at that point grant a 15 lesser variance if they felt that the needs 16 and the exceptions that have been presented 17 tonight warrant less than a minute but 18 greater than three seconds. So, at the 19 request of the applicant and given the -- 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: May I interrupt 21 here a minute? 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I think Robin 24 has a comment?
47 1 MS. WORKING: Excuse me. Mr. Chair, 2 the next hearing is on Monday, March 10th. 3 I am very concerned that this will not be 4 through as far as being a second reading for 5 approval by the City Council by that time. 6 I don't know what the Applicant had in mind 7 in terms of a table or a postponement. The 8 hearing after that is April 8th, so I don't 9 know if you would like to consider that. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The sign has 11 been up there for two years and I think he 12 can wait another two months for 13 consideration on that. 14 Please proceed, Member Fischer, 15 please. 16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I'll yield 17 the floor. 18 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you. I just 19 have one question. If the ordinance passes 20 and it comes to one minute and the Applicant 21 can live with one minute, there is no need 22 to come back to us, correct? 23 MS. KUDLA: Correct. 24 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you.
48 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: He would have to 2 withdraw his request at that time. But if 3 he wants something lesser then, of course, 4 he would need to come back in front of us. 5 Back to Member Fischer. 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Given the 7 discussion on the floor and the willingness 8 of the Applicant to table as well as the 9 advice from the City Attorney regarding the 10 ordinance being reviewed at this time, I 11 would move that we table case: 07-094 filed 12 by Jeffrey Wainwright at this time to the 13 March ZBA meeting. 14 MEMBER BAUER: Second the motion. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Or the first 16 meeting following the recommendation from 17 the committee. 18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If Robin -- 19 Robin has the discretion. If it's not done 20 she can contact the Chair and if they need 21 to push it until April. I am not saying 22 that March is a hard date. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: At the 24 discretion of the City working with the
49 1 Applicant. How is that? 2 MS. KUDLA: Okay. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Motion by Member 4 Fischer. Did have we a second? Second by 5 Member Bauer. 6 Further comments? Member Krieger? 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Just to ask for 8 Paradise Park to address any neighborly 9 concerns. 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would be 11 reluctant to get the Zoning Board because we 12 have a case in front of us regarding the 13 signs and I -- we should not go outside that 14 jurisdiction it's my impression. I feel the 15 comments should be directed towards the 16 City, but that's the City's job to do. 17 MS. KRIEGER: Okay. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. We have a 19 motion on the floor. Please call the roll. 20 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 23 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 24 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer?
50 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 3 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 7 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 8 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 10 MS. WORKING: Motion to table passes. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 12 MR. WAINWRIGHT: Thank you very much. 13 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Our second case 15 on the agenda is number three. Case number: 16 08-001 filed by Daniel Dempsey of Chameleon 17 Power located at 42400 Nine Mile Road. Is 18 the Applicant present? 19 MS. DEMPSEY: He is not, but I am his 20 wife. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Are you going to 22 speak on his behalf? 23 MS. DEMPSEY: Yes, please. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: All right. Let
51 1 me finish reading this then. They are 2 requesting one 30 square foot round sign 3 variance for the continued use of previously 4 approved 10 foot by 3 foot ground sign to be 5 located at said address. The Applicant has 6 an approved wall sign to this building. The 7 property is zoned I-1 and located west of 8 Venture Drive and north of Nine Mile Road. 9 The City of Novi Code of Ordinances, 10 Section 28-5(3). Number of on-premises 11 advertising signs permitted states: No 12 building or parcel of land shall be allowed 13 more than one sign permitted under this 14 section. 15 The Applicant has come forward. 16 Please state your name and address, and if 17 you are not an attorney be sworn in by our 18 Secretary. 19 MS. DEMPSEY: Okay. My name is Lisa 20 Dempsey. I live at 43643 Nine Mile Road. 21 We are in Novi. Our mailing address is 22 Northville, Michigan. 23 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise your 24 right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the
52 1 truth regarding case: 08-001? 2 MS. DEMPSEY: I do. 3 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 4 MS. DEMPSEY: You are welcome. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 6 your case. 7 MS. DEMPSEY: Well, I hope you have 8 the pictures that I sent to Robin. I am 9 just here to again ask that we be able to 10 use the signs that are there already. When 11 we moved into the building we didn't know of 12 any prior problems with the signs that were 13 erected. We just took the pieces of acrylic 14 out of the sign and since Johnson Printing 15 did not have that product on hand, we 16 actually just skinned the signs that were 17 there and put our logos on it and put them 18 back into the signs. 19 The electrical were already there. 20 The frames were already there. We are just 21 asking that we would be able to use these 22 signs as a part of our business. There is 23 nothing moving about them. They are exactly 24 the same on one side as the other. So that
53 1 they can be seen from traffic traveling 2 either way. 3 The measurements are exactly the same 4 that were approved by Rock Financial -- not 5 Rock Financial, Pioneer Mortgage and Sallie 6 Mae. 7 I guess if I could answer any 8 questions, I really don't have any more 9 comments to make about it. Just asking that 10 we be allowed to go forward. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Hang around. I 12 am sure there will be questions. 13 MS. DEMPSEY: Okay. 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 15 This is a public hearing. Is there 16 anyone in the audience who cares to speak on 17 this case? Seeing none, I will close the 18 public hearing and ask our Vice Chair if 19 there are any correspondence? 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 21 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 14 22 notices mailed with zero approvals and zero 23 objections. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
54 1 Comments from the City or Counsel? 2 MS. KUDLA: No. 3 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I will turn it 5 over to the ZBA for our comments. Member 6 Sanghvi? 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Am I 8 right in thinking that you are just changing 9 the verbiage on the sign and everything else 10 is the same? 11 MS. DEMPSEY: Yes. 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: If you are doing 13 that, I have no problem. Thank you. 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Short and sweet. 15 Member Wrobel? 16 MEMBER WROBEL: I totally agree. I 17 have no issue with this and I would approve 18 it. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 20 Member Bauer? 21 MEMBER BAUER: We approve this one. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That takes care 23 of that side of the table. Member Fischer? 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: When I
55 1 drove by I believe I saw, is there a wall 2 sign too? 3 MS. DEMPSEY: Yes. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is that why 5 we're here, Alan? 6 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Now, the 8 previous motion that I have shows that the 9 wall sign was denied but this sign approved; 10 is that correct? 11 MR. AMOLSCH: Well, actually the 12 original Petitioner, Pioneer Mortgage, 13 petitioned for two wall signs and a ground 14 sign. The Board at that time approved the 15 one wall sign. Approved the ground sign 16 upon the condition that it be for that 17 petitioner only. 18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON: Agreed. And 19 actually in that case I would actually make 20 a motion that in case number: 08-001 filed
21 by Daniel Dempsey of Chameleon Power located 22 at 42400 Nine Mile Road that the 23 Petitioner's request be granted given the 24 fact that the documentation as well as the
56 1 verbalized comments have established a 2 practical difficulty. Given the height and 3 the grade of the property and as a way to 4 identify the center. And I would also state 5 that this would be for this Petitioner only. 6 Thank you. 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a motion 9 by Member Fischer and a second by Member 10 Krieger. 11 Further comments? I have a couple. I 12 am not familiar with this business. Are you 13 in the same business that Pioneer Mortgage 14 was? 15 MS. DEMPSEY: No, we're not. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: What does 17 Chameleon do? 18 MS. DEMPSEY: Chameleon Power is a web 19 development company for the building 20 industry. We have a development team on the 21 upstairs that are working on the businesses 22 such as Builder Vision is our tool and we 23 host web sites for the building industry, 24 Congoleum, Mohawk Floors, JPF the roofing
57 1 company, brick manufactures and so forth. 2 And then the other company, Market 3 Link, is a manufacturer's web firm and we 4 employee local people doing telemarketing 5 and the market link technology, the 6 telecommunication manufacturer's rep firm, 7 if you sign the contract with Market Link 8 you are covered nationwide. And then from 9 trade shows when we acquire leads, our tele 10 marketers will followup on those leads and 11 we are expanding and we are doing hiring. 12 We don't have a lot of drive up traffic, but 13 the presence of a building like that makes 14 it all better for us, the appearance of our 15 business. So that's what we do. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: What is Market 17 Link? 18 MS. DEMPSEY: Market Link is a 19 manufacturer's rep firm for the computer 20 industry. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, there are 22 two different businesses in that building? 23 MS. DEMPSEY: Yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: But there is
58 1 only one wall sign and that's Chameleon? 2 MS. DEMPSEY: Yes. Chameleon is like 3 the parent company and Market Link would 4 just be a division of it. They work 5 together. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I think it's a 7 very nice looking sign. In fact, I like it 8 a lot better than the one that was there 9 previously. 10 MS. DEMPSEY: Thanks. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I like the 12 colors, et cetera. 13 I do have a little bit of a concern 14 only because other businesses on that street 15 such as (unintelligible) do not have a wall 16 sign. All they have is monument sign out 17 front. But since it appears the rest of the 18 Board is in favor of this I will adhere to 19 their recommendations. 20 Any other comments from the 21 group before we vote? Robin, please call 22 the roll. 23 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye.
59 1 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 2 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 4 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 8 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 10 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
13 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 14 MS. DEMPSEY: Thank you. What do I do 15 from this point? 16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Contact 17 Robin. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Contact the 19 City. 20 MS. DEMPSEY: Okay, thank you. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Case number four 22 was tabled. 23 So we are up to case number five which 24 is case number: 08-003 filed by Art
60 1 Lancaster/Agent Waltersdorf Family 2 Enterprises for Biggby Coffee located at 3 43346 Grand River Avenue. 4 Art Lancaster of Huron Sign Company 5 representing Biggby Coffee is requesting one 6 33.69 square foot area sign variance for the 7 north elevation of the Outlot Building #2 8 located at said address in the Town Center, 9 Novi Town Center. This business has 25 feet 10 of street frontage. 11 The Applicant is also requesting an 12 additional wall sign to the south elevation 13 of the building measuring 64.94 square feet. 14 The property is zoned TC-1 and is located 15 north of Grand River and east of Novi Road. 16 The agenda does state what the 17 ordinances cover. In the interest of time 18 we will go ahead and move forward. 19 The Applicant has come forward. Are 20 you an attorney, sir? 21 MR. LANCASTER: No. I am kind of 22 curious. If I were an attorney I wouldn't 23 have to swear in? 24 MEMBER BAUER: Yeah.
61 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: For some reason 2 they think they don't lie. I don't 3 understand that. 4 (Interposing)(Unintelligible). 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 6 your name and address and be sworn in by our 7 Secretary. 8 MR. LANCASTER: I am Art Lancaster. 9 My address is 2512 Durbin, Jackson, Michigan 10 49201. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise your 12 right hand, please. Do you swear or affirm 13 to tell the truth regarding case: 08-003? 14 MR. LANCASTER: I do. 15 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 17 your case. 18 MR. LANCASTER: Basically we're 19 looking at a situation where we have a 20 building which for all intents and purposes 21 requires signage on more than one side. The 22 building, the ordinance allows -- talks in 23 terms of if there is more than one street 24 involved and/or a parking lot. And so,
62 1 therefore, we are looking at the Grand River 2 side, the south side of the building and 3 letting people on Grand River and northbound 4 on Novi have some idea of what's in the 5 building, otherwise they see a blank wall. 6 On the entry side, the north elevation 7 would be the entry side. The reason we went 8 with the size that we did is that one wall 9 is 75 feet long, the side wall. So even 10 though the frontage is 25, we have 75 foot 11 of wall space on the east side. So, we sort 12 of went with the size that it said max side 13 based on. The whole thing boils down to the 14 narrow side is the frontage technically. 15 So, we do need two signs so that we 16 can let people know once they are in the 17 parking lot because if you can read the sign 18 from the southbound Novi, if you can read 19 the sign you can't get there. If you know 20 the drive into the Town Center, the entry to 21 the Town Center is north of the car wash. 22 So, if you can see the sign on the building 23 you can't get there. So, it's important to 24 have adequate signage if the business is
63 1 going to be successful. 2 And the family is here. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Do any of them 4 care to speak? 5 MR. WALTERSDORF: I would, yes. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please come 7 forward. Please state your name and address 8 and be sworn in. 9 MR. WALTERSDORF: Thank you. You want 10 to swear me in? You want my name and
11 address? Lee Waltersdorf of Okemos, 12 Michigan, 1933 Tucko (ph) Circle. 13 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 14 to tell the truth regarding case: 08-003? 15 MR. WALTERSDORF: Yes, I do. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 17 MR. WALTERSDORF: Thank you, Mr. 18 Lancaster for the opening there. Everybody 19 has the demonstrations of the signage? 20 Our request really and my comments 21 support Mr. Lancaster's comments. It is in 22 our opinion that a visual sign for just 23 about all directions at that intersection 24 really draws attention to what is there.
64 1 Biggby Coffee, which is growing all over the 2 country and I have to tell you it's at 255 3 in the fastest growing franchises in the 4 country. 5 Taking aside from that, the banner -- 6 excuse me for being so nervous. The banner 7 demonstrations that you have there we think 8 are very distinct. The big one which is the 9 -- demonstrates the color really brings out 10 the name of the company and what it has to 11 offer. And basically we have to offer 12 coffee which I will tell you is the best in 13 the country. 14 Looking at these 15 pictures, they are nearly an exact facility 16 of the actual signs although they are more 17 bolder than the Potbelly sign on the other 18 end of the unit, making them to seem to 19 stand out more. Actually we feel the 20 Potbelly signs are a little bit larger due 21 in part to the bump under the main body. 22 So, we are trying to come up with a formula 23 that allows us the same view and the same 24 discretion that's been allowed Potbelly. I
65
1 do think that -- I'm a little paralysed, I'm 2 sorry. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Take your time. 4 MR. WALTERSDORF: I think Mr. 5 Lancaster has really spelled out here 6 requesting the one 33.69 square foot area 7 variance for the north elevation. And 8 referring to the 25 feet frontage and the 75 9 feet of the east frontage building space. 10 And based upon those measurements, you have 11 our projections as to what the signage would 12 look like. 13 Some of the signage and there are 14 banners and those banners reflect exactly 15 what the signs would look like. I don't 16 know if I can offer any more comment or not. 17 In closing, you know, my son and I 18 have been looking for a location for this 19 business for over a year and a half. When 20 we heard of the development at Town Center, 21 we got terribly excited and made every 22 effort to negotiate the location and we feel 23 it is prime location. Any questions? 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: There probably
66 1 will be. Stick close and we'll get to you. 2 MR. WALTERSDORF: Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: This is a public 4 hearing. Is there anyone in the audience 5 who cares to comment on this case? Seeing 6 none, we'll close the public hearing and ask 7 our Vice-Chair if there are any notices? 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes, Mr. 9 Chair. There were 83 notices with zero 10 approvals and zero objections. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Any 12 comment from the City or Counsel? 13 MS. KUDLA: No. 14 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: All right. I'll 16 turn it over to the Board. I'll look at 17 this side this time. Okay, Member Wrobel? 18 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you. To staff. 19 What are the sizes of the Potbelly signs? 20 MR. AMOLSCH: They are approximately 21 62 square feet in area approved by the Board 22 a couple of months ago. 23 MEMBER WROBEL: Because looking at the 24 temporary ones it did appear that these ones
67 1 were slightly bigger. 2 MR. AMOLSCH: The Potbelly signs are 3 rounded. And we take the square -- 4 MR. WROBEL: Yeah -- 5 MR. AMOLSCH: -- you know that. 6 MEMBER WROBEL: First off, welcome to 7 Novi. Thank you for relocating here. I 8 have no issue with having two signs because 9 we all went through this before in other 10 cases given the location of the building. 11 The only thing I would support would be that 12 the signs be no bigger than the existing 13 Potbelly signs. I would like to see them be 14 fairly uniform. Those are my comments. 15 Thank you. 16 MR. LANCASTER: And you said Potbelly 17 is how big? 18 MR. AMOLSCH: To my recollection they 19 were approximately 62 square feet. 20 MR. LANCASTER: So we're talking about 21 two square feet? 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. 23 Wrobel. 24 Further comments? Member Fischer?
68 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would 2 basically in essence second Member Wrobel's 3 comments that I just really want to state 4 that the layout of that building where it's 5 located on Grand River on a corner there at 6 the Town Center, new parts of the Town 7 Center, I think it does warrant the two 8 signs. But at the same time once again I 9 think that uniformity with these buildings 10 is very important to us, esthetic 11 perspective and so I think that limiting it 12 to the sign of Potbelly hit it right on the 13 head. 14 Lastly, I want to echo his comments of 15 welcoming you to Novi. I think it will be a 16 great business. I think that's a great 17 location for it. I think you guys will do 18 well. 19 This B, just off the cuff, looks like 20 it's a Beaners. Am I missing something? 21 MEMBER WROBEL: It is. 22 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yeah. 23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is that a 24 back story to that?
69 1 MR. WALTERSDORF: Yes, there is a 2 story behind it. 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is it a 4 quick story or? 5 MR. WALTERSDORF: Well, it's a 6 sensitive story. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We don't need to 8 get into that. 9 MR. WALTERSDORF: Beaners was 10 established 1995 -- 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sir, if you are 12 going to speak we need to bring you to the 13 -- 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No, it was 15 just a question. I can get filled in. I'm 16 okay with the sign for now. So, I will 17 yield the floor back. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 18 MR. WALTERSDORF: Do you want me to 19 give you the story? 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Not at this 21 time. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. All 23 right, that was the only comment I had as 24 well, not to exceed the size of the existing
70 1 signage on the building on each elevation. 2 So is someone prepared to make a motion? 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You do a 4 great job. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I have writing 6 down here. Let's see. Okay, I move that we 7 grant the variance in case number: 08-003 8 filed by Biggby Coffee as the Petitioner has 9 established practical difficulty. He has 10 established a unique circumstance regarding 11 the subject property because of the building 12 being on the corner justifying the need for 13 signage viewable from both sides -- I'm 14 sorry, from both streets. 15 The Petitioner has established that 16 the proposed use improvement will not be a 17 detriment to public safety and welfare due 18 to it being consistent but rather approved 19 signage for the building. Petitioner has 20 established that the use improvement will 21 not impair an adequate supply of light and 22 air adjacent to properties because the 23 building is a stand alone and is a 24 substantial distance from other buildings.
71 1 The Petitioner has established the 2 proposed use improvement will not 3 unreasonably impair or diminish established 4 property values within the surrounding area 5 or impair the intent or the purpose of the 6 ordinance. Under the conditions to approval 7 I will include not to exceed the square 8 footage of previously approved signage on 9 the said building and must be consistent by 10 the north and south elevations. 11 MEMBER IBE: Second. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a motion 13 by Mr. Shroyer. A second by Member Ibe. 14 Is there further discussion? Seeing 15 none, Robin, please call the roll. 16 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 19 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 22 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
72 1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 3 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 5 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Welcome to Novi. 8 MR. WALTERSDORF: Thank you very much. 9 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Under other 11 matters. First item on the agenda is the 12 rules and procedures. What I would like to 13 do with this is ask the chairman of the 14 Subcommittee to give us a brief overview of 15 his letter of explanation. 16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 17 Mr. Chair. I notice that I left you off 18 that, Beth. Did you end up getting a copy 19 of what had been sent out to the Board? 20 MS. KUDLA: I did get it, but I did 21 not get back to the office because of the 22 snow storm to grab it off my desk. So, I am 23 going to have to look at someone else's. 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Are you
73 1 making fun of me because that's what I did 2 with Robin? I just asked Robin, I said I 3 was planning on stopping home and grab mine, 4 so I stole her's. 5 So, anyway, basically there were a 6 couple of questions, comments, concerns that 7 came up during the last meeting and I wanted 8 to go ahead and go through some of them. 9 First and foremost, some of the comments 10 that were made is that we truly are 11 volunteers for the City and I think that 12 while we do have an obligation to the 13 residents as well as other Board members to 14 run the Board efficiently, I do not consider 15 us to be under any laws or bounds or 16 anything to be considered employees or to be 17 bound by any rules that are restrictive or 18 that put us under any type of burden. This 19 not only should be a volunteer type 20 activity, but a fun one and it is one that I 21 truly enjoy with anyone here. So, anything 22 that might have been seemingly in the 23 revised rules that in any way construed that 24 point, it is my apology.
74 1 In essence, I just wanted to go 2 through absence policy because that seemed 3 to promote the most debate amongst members. 4 And in general the current rules state that, 5 and these were adopted on January 5th of 6 1999 by the ZBA at that time. That missing 7 three meetings, more than three meetings in 8 a six-month period would result in voluntary 9 resignation which is communicated to City 10 Council by the Chairperson and then City 11 Council actually takes the action to accept 12 that resignation whereas the new proposal is 13 for if any member within three meetings 14 within a 12-month period misses, then it 15 would be a voluntary resignation. It would 16 be communicated by the Community Development 17 Director. And once again, City Council still 18 has the final say on that. 19 But the most important piece of this 20 is that in order to promote good 21 communication we were hoping to allow for a 22 Board member to make sure that the alternate 23 member is prepared for the meeting and in 24 doing so if within seven days prior they let
75 1 everybody know that they won't be at a 2 meeting, then it would at that point be an 3 excused absence and not count towards the 4 three. 5 Once again going back to the fact that 6 you can in essence miss every single meeting 7 as long as you were well communicated. 8 Lastly, there is the exception for an 9 emergency such as a family emergency even 10 notice due to the snow, the Board could at 11 that time render an un-excused absence 12 excused. So, at that point that's basically 13 kind of the true intent of the policy. 14 I hope it eases some of the concerns 15 that were mentioned. And as stated in the 16 memo, basically I had hoped maybe we could 17 talk it out. Have some type of discussion. 18 Possibly vote on this or if not then it 19 would be my recommendation and my first 20 thing should the next thing on the agenda, 21 which is elections, if I were to be chosen 22 as Chair, I would ask that we go back to the 23 drawing board and take another look at it 24 and kind of start from scratch. Either one
76
1 is fine with me. 2 One other thing that I kind of wanted 3 to mention is that while these changes were 4 kind of a mix match of a bunch of different 5 recommendations that came from all over, the 6 City Attorney, other Board members, the 7 Chair, the full committee, I am not here 8 basically to shove this down everyone's 9 throat. I am not trying to say this is the 10 end all and be all. I am here to answer 11 questions. But by no means do I feel that 12 this needs to be adopted today. 13 So, thank you, Mr. Chair, for the 14 opportunity. And most importantly I do want 15 to recognize at the end of my memo that I do 16 recognize that all of us, the City staff as 17 well as all the Board members do work very 18 hard. We're all very dedicated to the City, 19 to this Board and so it is regardless of 20 this or any discussion that takes place, I 21 truly do appreciate working with all of you 22 and calling each of you my colleague. So, 23 thank you, Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
77 1 What I would like to do at this 2 time -- 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: May I interject as 4 another member of the committee? 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Oh, yes, you 6 may. 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. I would 8 like to add a little bit to the homework 9 because that was part of it. I did want to 10 say thank you for the letter because Justin 11 sent us a very nice letter. 12 And then one of Mav's concerns which 13 (unintelligible) from other boards that I 14 was on that my dad had concerns about. And 15 so I immediately went out to 16 (unintelligible) and check on this. That I 17 saw that City Council and the Planning 18 Commission were also reviewing their rules. 19 And so it is not something that's just for 20 this particular committee to go after any 21 particular person. So I feel these would 22 fit and would be able to support. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. What 24 I would like to do is go through each page,
78 1 and I'm not talking about reading the pages 2 or anything. But I would like to say, for 3 example, let's all look at page number one. 4 Is there any comments or questions regarding 5 that page? Then move on to the next. 6 Member Sanghvi, did you want to make a 7 comment first? 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. I would like to 9 make a comment before you continue on that 10 line. And my comment really is a very 11 humble suggestion and that is, instead of 12 passing these as it is presented, I wonder 13 if the Board would consider making kind of a 14 resolution or recommendation to the Mayor 15 and the City Council about certain changes 16 that are to be made. 17 And perhaps the change should start 18 with the process of the application for the 19 Zoning Board of Appeals which would 20 incorporate some of the duties and 21 responsibilities and absentee issue and all 22 that upfront before anybody applied and 23 interviewed and appointed rather than at the 24 end of the line and after becoming a member
79 1 so that everybody is aware upfront what is 2 expected of them. What are their duties, 3 responsibilities. Call it a job 4 description. Call it what you want to call 5 it, it doesn't matter. It's all semantic. 6 But it's a very good idea to let people know 7 what they are getting into at the beginning 8 rather than the end. That is one of my 9 suggestions that we should have a 10 recommendation to the Mayor and the City 11 Council that, A, we should incorporate some 12 of these issues that have been raised into 13 the application process, number one. 14 Number two, we also need to tell as 15 well as far as the alternates are concerned 16 that maybe instead of one we should have two 17 alternates. And I was an alternate for 18 almost two years and it was a great training 19 period for me. I think we need to look into 20 the situation where we have people coming up 21 the ranks to become the full members of the 22 ZBA who have gone through the alternate 23 membership period for awhile so that they 24 are aware of what's going on.
80 1 And also I think that it would also 2 improve the quality of participation of the 3 members and better functioning and better 4 handling of our responsibilities as members 5 and also (unintelligible) by doing that. 6 And number three was, one other issue 7 that I had with a recommendation which was 8 mentioned here was about the homeowners 9 obliged to get kind of a permission from the 10 Homeowners Association before they can 11 notify. I think the word shall instead 12 should be recommended as a courtesy should 13 be replaced by that so that it doesn't 14 become -- otherwise, what are you going to 15 do if the Homeowners Association doesn't 16 give its permission? What happens to them? 17 MEMBER BAUER: They still can come. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: No, it doesn't say 19 that. They shall obtain their permission. 20 That is why I have objection to the word 21 shall. I think we need to fine tune all 22 these little things and perhaps if it is all 23 right with the Board being this the internal 24 communication between the Zoning Board of
81 1 Appeals and the City Council and the Mayor, 2 or else we can meet informally, sort out 3 this thing together kind of a comprehensive 4 document which is easily understandable and 5 agreeable. And with everybody's suggestions 6 (unintelligible) and send it off to the City 7 Council and a copy to the City Clerk and the 8 City Manager. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Those 10 are some very, in my opinion very good 11 comments. I know it is under the City's 12 purview to establish a two alternate member 13 for the ZBA that's under the Michigan rules, 14 correct? 15 MS. KUDLA: Actually the MZBA rules, 16 we do have to consider the makeup. I am 17 looking it up at this moment, though. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: For some reason 19 I recall reading that we are permitted to 20 have two alternate members. Of course, that 21 would be the City Council's decision. 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: That is why it 23 becomes a recommendation. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, what I am
82 1 looking at from what Mav had indicated is 2 the possibility of having an informal 3 meeting of the full Board where the full 4 Board would be having an open discussion 5 regarding the subcommittee's 6 recommendations. And a couple of things to 7 key in on would be the possibility of 8 recommending a second alternate member. 9 Changing the verbiage of shall into the 10 homeowner's activity to something similar to 11 recommend as a courtesy. 12 Obviously, because City Council has 13 the final say as to whether or not to accept 14 a voluntary resignation, it has been 15 recommended that it go in front of the City 16 Council for their review. Did I leave 17 anything out? 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's the important 19 thing is to put it upfront to all applicants 20 involved in terms of content. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And another 22 recommendation that may come out of the 23 group to the City Council is that this be 24 incorporated into the application process so
83 1 that when somebody fills out an application 2 they have a copy of the rules and procedures 3 so they are well aware of what the 4 obligations would be prior to interviewing 5 with Council for that position. 6 How does that sound to the group? 7 MEMBER BAUER: What was that again? 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I think 9 that sounds good. What would be the next 10 step as recommended by you? 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The next step 12 would be to find a time and a day that would 13 be appropriate under the Open Meetings Act 14 where we could have a meeting to discuss 15 this. 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: I don't know whether 17 you have internal communication between the 18 Zoning Board of Appeals and the City Council 19 that would be the resolution in the internal 20 communication whether even the Open Meeting 21 Act applies to it. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Well, we'll turn 23 to our attorney and ask her. 24 MS. KUDLA: One thing that I wanted to
84 1 say first is that two alternates are 2 permitted, but it would require a zoning 3 ordinance amendment. The Zoning ordinance 4 has to state how many Board members there 5 are, so it would have to go through City 6 Council. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: But we 8 could still make a recommendation or a 9 resolution to ask them to consider? 10 MS. KUDLA: Yes. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: A question for 12 the latter part. Is the Open Meeting Act, 13 does that come forth when we're talking 14 about having -- 15 MS. KUDLA: At what point? 16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We would 17 have a special meeting to discuss this 18 particular -- 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: It doesn't have to be 20 here. 21 MS. KUDLA: It can be done as a 22 committee. 23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: But if we 24 want the full Board.
85 1 MS. KUDLA: If there is going to be a 2 final decision made it would have to be an 3 open meeting. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We can make it 5 an open meeting. That's not an issue then. 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Then somebody would 7 have to keep the minutes and do all kinds of 8 things. 9 MEMBER BAUER: She doesn't have 10 anything to do. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The other option 12 is the Chair has the discretion of calling a 13 special meeting at any time. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Why can't you call 15 the whole Board and the committee and have a 16 meeting of the committee. 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Because we 18 wouldn't be able to have a full Board. If 19 we were going to work towards a resolution 20 to Council and we were going act on it -- 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: I am sure that 22 everybody will have something to contribute 23 to this process. 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And if we
86 1 have everyone, then we need to call a 2 meeting if we are going to work towards a 3 decision. 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: We are not discussing 5 any public -- 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: This 7 technically is public. We would be making a 8 decision on our own rules. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: We are making a 10 decision about recommendations. We are not 11 making a decision on any rules. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: If there is no 13 vote at the meeting -- 14 MS. KUDLA: No final -- 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: If there is no 16 vote at the meeting, if it's just a 17 discussion, then as a group we agree to 18 bring this forward to the City Council as a 19 recommendation -- 20 MS. KUDLA: You wouldn't have to vote. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We wouldn't 22 vote. We would just have it as a 23 recommendation and we wouldn't have to 24 follow under the Open Meeting Act; is that
87 1 correct? 2 MS. KUDLA: That's true. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So we can set an 4 informal meeting at a time and place to be 5 determined. And what I would ask at this 6 point is if Robin could contact everyone. 7 She loves doing that. 8 MS. WORKING: (Unintelligible). 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Don't send me an 10 e-mail. To try to come up with a good day, 11 time that all the appropriate people would 12 be available. 13 MS. WORKING: When you say appropriate 14 would you like everyone -- 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: All the Board 16 members including the alternate and whoever 17 in the City and Attorney's office that you 18 feel would be necessary. 19 MS. WORKING: But this would not be a 20 special meeting requiring notification under 21 the Open Meetings Act? 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: No. 23 MS. WORKING: So, it would be like a 24 subcommittee meeting with all the Board
88 1 members? 2 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It wouldn't 3 even be a subcommittee meeting. We wouldn't 4 be calling the meeting. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It's not a 6 subcommittee. It's just -- 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Similar to 8 our training. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: A gather to 10 discuss the rules and regulations and 11 hopefully come up with recommendations. 12 MS. WORKING: Is this something you 13 would like to have happen before the March 14 10th ZBA hearing date which is a Monday? 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: It shouldn't be any 16 time frame on it because there is nothing 17 urgent about it. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: No rush. All 19 right. I think we're good there. 20 21 The last item on the agenda is 22 elections. We have nominated and they have 23 accepted the nomination for Chair, Justin 24 Fischer; Vice-Chair, Mav Sanghvi; and for
89 1 Secretary, Linda Krieger. 2 So, can we do this, a vote by 3 acclamation? I know it has to be -- or does 4 it have to be roll call individually by 5 position? 6 MS. KUDLA: It doesn't have to be roll 7 call. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Can we do all 9 three at the same time as we have a slate as 10 we just stated? 11 MS. KUDLA: Yeah, you can do that. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sounds good. 13 Okay. So, I will make a motion. 14 MS. WORKING: I don't know, is that a 15 conflict of interest? Would that be 16 bipartisan, Mr. Chair? 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That we elect by 18 acclamation Justin Fischer as Chair. Mav 19 Sanghvi as Vice-Chair. And Linda Krieger as 20 Secretary effective immediately. 21 MEMBER BAUER: I'll second it. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Can I make it 23 retroactive, in fact? Okay, we have a 24 motion by me and a second by Member Bauer.
90 1 All in favor say aye? 2 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: All opposed same 4 sign? Nobody. 5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would 6 like to abstain -- 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Motion has 8 passed. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Motion to adjourn. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Motion to 11 adjourn. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Meeting 14 adjourned at 8:31. 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You can't 16 adjourn the meeting. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Oh, I can't 18 adjourn the meeting? 19 (Interposing)(Unintelligible). 20 MS. WORKING: Who proposed the 21 adjournment, please? 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Mav Sanghvi. 23 MS. WORKING: And who second it? 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Jerry.
91 1 (The meeting was adjourned at 2 8:31 p.m.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
92 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby certify 5 that I have recorded stenographically the 6 proceedings had and testimony taken in the 7 above-entitled matter at the time and place 8 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further 9 certify that the foregoing transcript, 10 consisting of (76) typewritten pages, is a 11 true and correct transcript of my said 12 stenographic notes. 13 14 15 16 17 18 _____________________________ 19 Mona L. Talton, 20 Certified Shorthand Reporter 21 22 February 22, 2008 23 24
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