| View Agenda for this meeting View Action Summary for this meeting REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, September 11, 2007. BOARD MEMBERS ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: 1 Novi, Michigan 2 Tuesday, September 5, 2007 3 7:30 p.m. 4 - - - - - - 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: By the clock on 6 the wall it is 7:30. Everyone can hear? 7 THE AUDIENCE: Yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It's 7:30, so at 9 this time I will call the regular meeting of 10 the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of 11 Novi for Tuesday, September 11th, 2007 to 12 order. 13 Ms. Working, would you please call the 14 roll. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 16 MEMBER BAUER: Present. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Here. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Here.
21 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Present. 23 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 24 MEMBER CANUP: Here.
4 1 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 2 MS. KRIEGER: Here. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 4 MEMBER WROBEL: Present. 5 MS. WORKING: All present, Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. We 7 have a quorum. We will move forward. I am 8 sure everyone here is aware of the date, 9 it's September 11th. So in honor of those 10 victims that perished during the 9/11 11 tragedy I would like to have a moment of 12 silence. So please bear with us and have a 13 moment of silence for those victims and 14 their families. Thank you. 15 At this time I would like to ask 16 Member Fischer to lead us in the Pledge of 17 Allegiance. 18 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge allegiance to 19 the flag of the United States of America and 20 to the Republic for which it stands, one 21 nation under God indivisible with liberty 22 and justice for all. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. I 24 want to make a couple of announcements
5 1 before we move on. 2 I know there are a lot of people 3 standing out in the foyer area. We have set 4 up as many chairs as the building occupancy 5 allows us to have. So, I am sorry if 6 anybody has to stand. Hopefully you can 7 watch the proceedings on TV and will be able 8 to hear everything. If somebody can't hear 9 out in the audience, please holler and 10 scream or raise your hand or something and 11 we will be sure and recognize you and try to 12 adjust our volumes and take care of that. 13 At this time I would like our 14 Vice-Chair to read the public hearing format 15 and rules of conduct. 16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 17 Mr. Chair. The rules of conduct for the 18 Zoning Board of Appeals can be found on the 19 first page of the agenda. 20 Please make sure that all cell phones 21 and pagers are turned off during the 22 meeting. The applicant or representative 23 will be asked to come forth to the podium, 24 state their name and address and be sworn in
6 1 by the Zoning Board of Appeals secretary. 2 Applicants or representatives will be 3 allowed five minutes to address the Board 4 and present their case. An extension of 5 time may be granted at the discretion of the 6 Chairperson. 7 Anyone in the audience who wishes to 8 address the Board regarding the current case 9 will be asked by the Chairperson to raise 10 their hand and be recognized. Once 11 recognized, audience members addressing the 12 Board will be sworn in and given 13 three minutes to speak on behalf of an 14 individual or 10 minutes if representing a 15 group. 16 Members of the audience will be 17 allowed to address the Board once unless 18 directly questioned by a Board Member or the 19 Chairperson. 20 The Secretary will read the number of 21 public hearing notices mailed pertaining to 22 the current case. An objection and approval 23 responses will be entered into the record at 24 this time. The Chairperson will ask for
7 1 input from the Community Development 2 Department Liaison, the Ordinance 3 Enforcement Officer, the Planning Department 4 and the City attorney. 5 At this time the Chairperson will 6 turn the case over to the Board for 7 discussion, clarification and to entertain 8 motions when appropriate. Impromptu 9 statements from the audience during 10 discussion by the Board will be considered 11 out of order and handled appropriately. 12 A roll call vote will be taken to 13 approve or deny the Motion on the table, and 14 the next case will be called. 15 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. The 17 Zoning Board of Appeals is a hearing board 18 empowered by the Novi City Charter to hear 19 appeals seeking variances from the 20 Application of Novi Zoning Ordinances. It 21 takes a vote of at least four members to 22 approve a variance request and a -- it's on? 23 I will change mikes here. Is this one any 24 better?
8 1 THE AUDIENCE: Yes. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes? Okay, I 3 will try to turn off the other one. It 4 takes a vote of at least four members to 5 approve a variance request and a vote of the 6 majority present to deny a request. 7 The Board consists of seven regular 8 members and one alternate member. The 9 alternate member has the right to 10 participate in all Board discussions and 11 hearings but may not vote except in the 12 absence or abstention of a regular Board 13 member. 14 I do want to make one other 15 announcement. Do we have the cards in the 16 back of the room? Great. 17 Anyone that wants to speak during a 18 public hearing this evening, we have cards 19 in the back of the room that you need to 20 complete. Fill those out, bring them 21 forward when I ask for you to come forward 22 to speak and give them to our Recording 23 Secretary, if you would. That way we can 24 have an accurate record as to who has
9 1 spoken. 2 At this time I will entertain an 3 approval of the agenda. 4 MEMBER BAUER: So moved. 5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Are there
6 any changes, Mr. Chair? 7 MS. WORKING: Mr. Chair, I would like 8 to add under other matters, ITC, please. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That would be 10 item number four under other matters? 11 MS. WORKING: That is correct. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Any 13 other additions or changes? 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Motion to 15 approve as amended. 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Second. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 18 and a second. Please call the roll. 19 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 21 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Aye. 23 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 24 MEMBER CANUP: Yes.
10 1 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 2 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 4 MEMBER BAUER: Present. 5 MS. WORKING: Chair Shroyer? 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Approved as -- 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Amended. Thank 11 you. 12 At this time we will entertain public 13 remarks from anyone in the public that 14 wishes. 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Point of 16 order, Mr. Chair, we have the minutes to 17 approve as well from July 10th. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We do have the 19 minutes. 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And if it's 21 all right with you I would like to go ahead 22 and move to approve as submitted. 23 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
11 1 I had already checked that off. 2 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No problem. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Obviously we 4 haven't done that. We have a Motion and a 5 second. All in favor say aye. 6 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Opposed same 8 sign. 9 At this point we will entertain anyone 10 who wants to speak from the public regarding 11 any matter other than a case that is brought 12 forth on the public hearing agenda. Is 13 there anyone that cares to speak to the 14 group? 15 16 Seeing none, at this time we will move 17 then to the first case which is case number: 18 07-047 filed by Joe M. Debrincat of 1339 19 East Lake Drive. 20 The Applicant is requesting three 21 setback variances for the addition of an 22 enclosed stairway, the projection of two bay 23 windows and for the construction of a 24 sunroom addition to the existing residence
12 1 at said location. It is in the Shore Acres 2 Subdivision. The property is zoned R-4 and 3 located north of 13 Mile and west of Novi 4 Road. 5 The City Ordinance codes indicate 6 under Section 2400, scheduled regulations 7 requires a minimum interior setback, side 8 yard setback of 10 feet and a minimum 9 exterior side yard setback of 30 feet. 10 The Applicant is requesting a two-feet 11 variance on one side yard. And 20-foot 12 variance on the second side yard and 20-foot 13 exterior side yard setback also. He is 14 requesting the three side yard setback 15 variances for addition to an existing home. 16 Is the Applicant present? Please come 17 forward. 18 MR. DEBRINCAT: My name is Larry 19 Debrincat. I live at 8917 Tavastock in 20 Plymouth. I am here representing Joseph M. 21 Debrincat and I would like to request that 22 we be granted three variances for the -- if 23 I can just go through the drawings here. 24 Maybe it would be easier to explain it.
13 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Mr. Debrincat, 2 if you are not an attorney we need to swear 3 you in. 4 Our Secretary will swear you in. 5 MEMBER BAUER: Would you get over by 6 the mike? 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Go back to the 8 mike, please. 9 MR. DEBRINCAT: This mike would be 10 fine? 11 MEMBER BAUER: Any mike, doesn't 12 matter. Do you swear or affirm to tell the 13 truth in Case: 07-047? 14 MR. DEBRINCAT: I do. 15 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Now you may 17 present your case. 18 MR. DEBRINCAT: Thank you. We're 19 asking for three variances. Two of the 20 variances are as a result of the 21 construction of Morgan Creek Court which is 22 on the north side of the existing house that 23 would be, it would actually run across here. 24 The construction of that road required
14 1 a 30-foot setback which actually puts the 2 setback on the south side of the building, 3 so that any additions to the house are going 4 to require a variance. 5 The first variance that we are 6 requesting is for an enclosure of a stairway 7 that goes to a downstairs room. There is an 8 outdoor, there is a door there now, it goes 9 down about two steps. The area does collect 10 water and is a problem. What we would like 11 to do is enclose this area and then also 12 extend it up to the second level where it 13 would become a closet for the upstairs 14 bedroom as well. 15 The second variance request is to 16 add, to expand the deck that is, presently 17 there is a deck out there now. This picture 18 illustrates it quite well. It just runs 19 across the front, it's only about 8-foot 20 wide. 21 What we are requesting is to be 22 permitted to extend the deck. There is a 23 court yard in here with three sets of
24 planters in here to extend that deck to
15 1 conform to that planter area and to expand 2 that deck. 3 At some point in the future he would 4 like to enclose the area below the deck for 5 a sunroom. As I indicated before, both of 6 these variances are required as a result of 7 the construction of Morgan Creek Court which 8 has put the setback to the south side of the 9 home. So actually, the existing home within 10 the setback area is nonconforming. 11 The last request for variance is for 12 two bump out windows which would be here and 13 here. The Ordinance does permit intrusion 14 or expansion into that required setback for 15 a bay window, but it restricts it to two 16 feet for every foot -- excuse me, two inches 17 for every foot of required setback. 18 The required setback in this case is 19 10 feet, so the maximum permitted would be 20 20 inches. What we are requesting in this 21 case is to be permitted to bump these two 22 areas out 24 inches. So we are asking for a 23 four inch variance in those cases. 24 The reason for the bump out is that
16 1 this area here which is the master bedroom 2 is only 10 feet wide and by permitting that 3 bump out, we are able to gain two additional 4 feet. So, this is the bump out area here. 5 And this is the second bump out here. This 6 will give us a little bit more floor area 7 and make that room a little more useable as 8 far as furniture layout and so forth. So, we 9 are asking for that 4-inch variance. 10 And then also we're asking that the 11 4-inch variance be granted for the window 12 out front just for architecturally keeping 13 the building in harmony. 14 As you can see the two bump outs help 15 to relieve the south facade of the building. 16 Helps to break it up a little bit more. 17 Presently it's a long narrow building. 18 Adding these bump outs help to break that 19 out. Right now it would be the equivalent 20 to a box car because that's the way it 21 pretty much looks. It's very narrow that 22 way. 23 So I would entertain any questions at 24 this point and hopefully you will consider
17 1 positively on this matter. Thank you very 2 much. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 4 Please stay close if we have any questions. 5 At this time I would like the 6 Vice-Chair to read any notices or summarize 7 our notices that were mailed. 8 In this case, Mr. Chair, there 9 were 73 notices. There was one approval and 10 zero objections. The one approval is 11 Timothy C. Richardson of 1511 West Lake 12 Drive. No comments. 13 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. At 15 this time this is a public hearing. Is 16 there anyone in the audience who cares to 17 address the Board on this case? I will give 18 it a couple minutes to see if there is 19 anyone outside. Not minutes, but a few 20 moments here. I don't see anyone coming 21 forward. So at this time I will close the 22 public hearing and turn it over to the 23 Board. 24 Well, first of all, I want to ask the
18
1 City attorneys if they have any comments on 2 this case? 3 MR. FOX: I do have one comment. 4 The one setback variance for the interior 5 side yard that reads on your packet as 6 2-foot variance request. The reason it 7 reads that way is he is allowed exactly what 8 he said, but the way the Ordinance reads in 9 that case that's allowed for a bay window up 10 to a maximum of 10 foot in width. Since he 11 exceeds that when you add the two together 12 and actually the one window itself, he 13 really needs the variance for the entire 14 depth of the widow because it exceeds the 15 Ordinance requirements. That's why it's 16 read that way in the Ordinance. So he is 17 asking really for a 2-foot variance in this 18 case instead of the 4-inch variance. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Any 20 other comments? 21 At this time I will turn it over 22 to the Board for comments and discussions. 23 Member Canup? 24 MEMBER CANUP: My question is, is the
19 1 garage in back of the home? 2 MR. DEBRINCAT: Yes. 3 MEMBER CANUP: And it appears that the 4 garage door is facing alongside of the home 5 where the entrance would be that you would 6 drive between the two homes? This picture 7 that I'm looking at here. 8 MR. DEBRINCAT: The garage does face 9 the back of the existing home, that is 10 correct. 11 MEMBER CANUP: What is the access to 12 that garage? 13 MR. DEBRINCAT: At this point there is 14 none other than going across a lawn area at 15 this time. Right now it is used only for 16 boat storage and the boat trailers are hand 17 wheeled across the lawn area. 18 MEMBER CANUP: Could you explain 19 parking. 20 MR. DEBRINCAT: There is a parking 21 area in front of the home. It would be out 22 beyond the court yard area. There is a 23 planting area here and then there are two 24 parking spaces here with a possible third
20 1 space if you actually park behind the two 2 existing spaces. 3 MEMBER CANUP: What is the distance 4 from the most extreme portion of the home 5 which would be the deck area to the road for 6 parking? 7 MR. DEBRINCAT: I do not have that 8 information at this time. But it is well -- 9 this proposed deck here would be well within 10 the setback requirement from East Lake 11 Drive. 12 MEMBER CANUP: I guess I have some 13 concerns about parking. I would want to 14 know more about the parking. Maybe it does 15 meet the required setback, but does the 16 required setback also allow for parking? 17 Al, could you address that? I think 18 before I would want to go any further with 19 this I would want to know what area is 20 available for parking in that front yard. 21 That's where it's going to be parking, 22 right? 23 MR. DEBRINCAT: Well, those are 24 existing spaces and they have been there for
21 1 a number of years. Plus, he does have 2 property on or between East Lake Drive and 3 the lake area as well, and there is a, I 4 believe, there is a concrete pad there as 5 well. 6 MEMBER CANUP: I don't have a problem 7 with it as long as there is parking 8 available. So far I don't see any depiction 9 of parking for areas -- 10 MR. DEBRINCAT: You could at least 11 park five or six cars on the property. As I 12 indicated, three in front of this area and 13 you could probably put at least three more 14 on the lake lot or the lake area. 15 MEMBER CANUP: We have seen many cases 16 like this come before us over the years and 17 a lot of times there is a shortage of 18 parking and your interpretation of area of 19 parking versus what is reality may be 20 different than what this Board is willing to 21 accept. 22 MR. DEBRINCAT: Well, I have been 23 there on occasion during a family party and 24 so forth and we were able to park at least
22 1 six cars on the property. 2 MEMBER CANUP: Before I would vote on 3 this I would want to know more about the 4 parking. That's the end of my discussion. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Other comments? 6 Member Sanghvi? 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 8 Actually I was there this morning at this 9 property and there is adequate room to park 10 in front which is really clearly off the 11 area where they are planning to build. I 12 looked at the property very carefully and 13 saw that there is adequate parking there and 14 there is also a possibility of parking along 15 the new street that they are talking about. 16 And from the parking point of view I 17 personally don't foresee any problems. Thank 18 you. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any other 20 comments? Mr. Fox? 21 MR. FOX: I can give a little bit of 22 clarification. It looks to be that he has 23 an area in the front of the property labeled 24 existing asphalt paving. That area
23 1 approximately scales about 20 feet deep on 2 the front of the property from the edge of 3 the existing plantar up towards the house he 4 has a paved area of at least 20 feet. That 5 is approximately five to six feet off of the 6 edge of the road where that begins. That 7 will give you some idea of what he has there 8 to work with for parking. 9 MR. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any more 10 comment? Any Motions to come forward? 11 Member Canup -- oh, Mr. Sanghvi, I'm 12 sorry. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Thank 14 you, Mr. Chair. In Case number: 07-047 15 filed by Joe M. Debrincat at 1339 East Lake 16 Drive, I make a Motion to grant the variance 17 as requested as the Petitioner has shown 18 sufficient hardship because of the lot 19 configuration. Thank you. 20 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 22 and a second. Is there further discussion? 23 Seeing none, Robin, please call the 24 roll.
24 1 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 4 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 7 MS. WORKING: Chair Shroyer? 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 10 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 14 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 16 MR. DEBRINCAT: Thank you. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, sir. 18 Could I have everyone's attention. Please 19 listen. I know there is an awful lot of 20 people here, and it's going to be a very
21 long evening. But we need to try to keep 22 the roar down, especially out in the foyer 23 area or we are going to need to close the 24 doors. It's difficult to hear, so try and
25 1 control the noise, if you would, please. 2 Thank you very much. 3 MS. WORKING: Chair Shroyer? 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, ma'am. 5 MS. WORKING: If the members of the 6 Board would so be inclined, would you please 7 raise your mike all way for me this evening 8 so that I may able to do my transcription 9 tomorrow. Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Would everybody 11 please comply? 12 MS. WORKING: Thank you. 13 MEMBER CANUP: Mr. Chairman? 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
15 MEMBER CANUP: It appears that your 16 comments there were not taken well and I 17 think probably the people out in the back 18 that are making all the noise can't really 19 hear that and maybe aren't aware that they 20 need to keep it down. So, I don't know how 21 you can communicate with them, but if it 22 doesn't cease or go down, that we're going 23 to have to close those doors because it's 24 hard to sit here to hear the comments from
26 1 the Board Members and people who are 2 presenting their cases. 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would 4 second those sentiments. Just given the 5 fact that the doors are open today. The 6 people out in there I would consider them 7 part of the hearing and since they are being 8 so -- keeping talking which isn't an issue, 9 but we might need to shut the doors if that 10 continues. Like I said, I see them as part 11 of the hearing right now and they are being 12 disruptive to the Board. I can't even hear 13 my fellow Board members, so, if it does keep 14 up one more case, I would agree with Mr. 15 Canup that we shut the doors. 16 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 18 19 We are going to move on to the second 20 case for the night and that is Case number: 21 07-049 filed by William Short of Charisma 22 Salon located at 43267 Crescent Boulevard. 23 William Short of Charisma Salon is 24 requesting one 24 square foot sign variance
27 1 for the placement of a 16 foot by 1 foot 6 2 inch tall wall sign on the rear elevation of 3 said salon. 4 The property is zoned TC and located 5 east of Novi Road and north of Grand River 6 Avenue. Under the City Code of Ordinance 7 Section 28-5(3)f it states: Where two or 8 more separately owned and operated 9 businesses occupy a building on a single 10 parcel of land each having a separate 11 exterior entrance, each business is entitled 12 to a signal identification wall sign. 13 Is the Applicant present? 14 MR. SHORT: Yes, sir. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Obviously he is. 16 If you are not an attorney please be sworn 17 in by our Secretary. 18 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 19 to tell the truth regarding Case: 07-047? 20 MR. SHORT: Yes, sir, I do. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: At this point, 23 please present your case. 24 MR. SHORT: My name is William Short
28 1 and my wife and I own Charisma Salon and Spa 2 in the Novi Town Center. We are located 3 there in one of the out buildings. The gold 4 dome building where the clock tower is. We 5 are located between Baja Fresh and Boyne 6 Country. I might start by saying 7 this variance was afforded to both my 8 neighbors and the previous tenant in my 9 space which was AT&T. Because of the reason 10 it's a difficult building and that our 11 address is Crescent Boulevard. And as 12 Crescent Boulevard runs behind our store, 13 when people try to find us they have very 14 little luck because there is no sign on 15 Crescent Boulevard. Our sign is in the 16 parking lot as are the rest of the neighbors 17 there. 18 What we are asking for is simply the 19 ability to make ourselves visible to the 20 customers that are coming down Crescent 21 Boulevard there. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is that it? 23 MR. SHORT: Yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. This
29 1 is a public hearing, so at this time I will 2 ask if there is any member of the audience 3 that cares to speak on this case, please 4 come forward? 5 Seeing none, we will close the public 6 hearing. 7 I will ask the Secretary to read any 8 notices that may have come in -- I'm sorry, 9 the Vice-Chair to read these. 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 11 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 90 12 notices mailed. There was one approval. An 13 approval from Harold Tuck and Violet Tuck of 14 Novi Auto Parts at 43131 Grand River in 15 Novi. They have no problem with the 16 variance. 17 Business needs all the assistance they 18 can get these days. It appears that there 19 is actually one other approval from Tom 20 Rolands, general manager at 42100 Crescent 21 Boulevard and states: No problem. 22 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. At 24 this time is there any comments from the
30 1 City? 2 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I will turn it 4 over to the Board for discussion. 5 Member Sanghvi? 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Fischer had -- 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Go ahead. 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, thank you. I 9 just have one question for Alan. The size 10 of the sign they are requesting are they 11 within the limits otherwise? 12 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes, they are. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: They are? 14 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes. 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: So, we are only 16 discussing the second sign? 17 MR. AMOLSCH: Just the second sign, 18 that's correct. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Well, I was there 20 again, and I looked at your place. I know 21 exactly what you mean. There is no way of 22 knowing from Crescent Boulevard where your 23 place is. And personally I think you need a 24 business identification sign on Crescent
31 1 Boulevard and I have no hesitation in 2 supporting your application. 3 MR. SHORT: Thank you, sir. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Fischer, 5 did you have a comment? 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes. Mr. 7 Amolsch, the size of the Baja Fresh sign do 8 you know that by chance? 9 MR. AMOLSCH: It's about 24 square 10 feet. 11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And the 12 AT&T sign that was previously there? 13 MR. AMOLSCH: That was about 24 square 14 feet too. 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, it's in 16 line? 17 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes. 18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I agree 19 with Mr. Sanghvi's sentiments as well given 20 that you have an entrance in the front and a 21 road in the back I think it makes it very 22 difficult and I can see the practical 23 difficulty involved. 24 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
32 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Mr. Canup? 2 MR. CANUP: It appears that this is a 3 pretty simple case of replacing what was a 4 sign there at one time with a sign that 5 would conform with that same variance that 6 was granted some years ago. 7 So, with that in case number: 07-049 8 I would make a Motion that we grant the 9 variance as requested due to a practical 10 hardship in the location of the building 11 having actually two sides. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 14 and a second. Any further discussion? 15 Seeing none, Ms. Working, would you 16 please call the roll. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 18 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 20 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 23 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 24 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
33 1 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 4 MS. KRIEGER: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, sir. 9 MR. SHORT: Thank you, ladies and 10 gentlemen. 11 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Our next 13 case on the agenda is case number: 07-057 14 filed by Tony V's Sunroom and Spas for 25671 15 Strath Haven Drive. 16 The Applicant is requesting one 17 seven-foot rear setback variance for the 18 reconstruction of an existing sunroom 19 located at said address in the Pioneer 20 Meadows Subdivision. The property is zoned 21 R-4 and located south of Eleven Mile and 22 east of Beck Road. 23 Under the City Ordinances Article 24 24 Section 2400 the Schedule of Regulations
34 1 requires a minimum rear yard setback of 2 35 feet. The Applicant is requesting one 3 setback as mentioned and the variance 4 requested is seven feet. 5 And I see the Applicant has made his 6 way up to the podium. 7 If you are not an attorney please be 8 sworn in by our Secretary. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 10 to tell the truth regarding Case: 07-057? 11 MR. KODA (ph): Yes, I do. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 13 MR. KODA: My name is Terry Koda and I 14 was the designer consultant on the project 15 and I am here representing Tony V's Sunrooms 16 on behalf of the O'Sullivans. 17 The point is when they purchased this 18 house it already had a sunroom on the 19 residence as described there and it was 20 already in violation. 21 And what we are seeking to do is just 22 to update the sunroom. Add better windows, 23 better quality windows, a roof with better 24 insulation in it and a door that will seal
35 1 well. We are not adding any square footage. 2 We are not expanding into the setback area 3 at all. Really the problem is whoever built 4 the sunroom many, many years ago, whoever it 5 was did not comply with the City code at 6 that time. We are just updating the room 7 basically. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is there a way 9 that we can get the mike on the podium 10 turned up louder? 11 MEMBER BAUER: If that noise back 12 there would be cut out you can hear it. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Again, I would 14 like to thank the audience that's out in the 15 foyer, in the lobby area to try to keep the 16 noise down if they can hear me. It's 17 difficult for us to understand the 18 applicants and hear the applicants present. 19 We see one of our finest walking in that 20 direction. That may help. 21 MR. KODA: Would it help if I use this 22 microphone? 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That will help 24 too, but I believe we got technical support
36 1 here. 2 MR. KODA: Between the two maybe we'll 3 get this done. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 5 MR. KODA: Thank you. Again, The 6 sunroom was already in existence when the 7 O'Sullivans purchased the house and we are 8 just strictly updating the windows, the roof 9 and the doors so that they can extended use 10 of the room with better ceiling, better 11 insulation and stuff like that. We are not 12 changing the style, the roof design, 13 anything and we are not changing the 14 footings, the foundation to enlarge the room 15 at all. So, it would be exactly same 16 footprint that currently exists. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. This 18 is a public hearing. Is there anyone in the 19 audience that cares to speak on this case? 20 I get a feeling that everybody in the 21 audience is here to speak on another case. 22 Okay. 23 Seeing none, at this time I will close 24 the public hearing and ask our Vice-Chair to
37 1 respond to any correspondence that has been 2 received. 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will read 4 them, I'm not going to respond right here 5 and now. In this case, ladies and 6 gentlemen, there were 30 notices mailed, 7 zero approvals and zero objections. 8 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Any 10 comments from the City regarding this case?
11 Mr. Fox? 12 MR. FOX: Just for a little 13 clarification. I did a little bit of 14 research on this project when they brought 15 it in for permit application to rebuild the 16 existing sunroom. It appears that there was 17 never a permit pulled on the original 18 sunroom, none that I can find. So the 19 setback requirement was never met which is 20 why we are here tonight because they exceed 21 the setback requirement. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 23 Member Canup? I'll open it up to 24 the Board for discussion.
38 1 MEMBER CANUP: This in my neighborhood 2 and probably about three doors from me. I 3 have been there longer than I care to admit 4 which is about 35 years, and I don't ever 5 remember that sunroom not being there. It 6 was probably put on before we had an 7 Ordinance to deal with it. It is not 8 offensive in any way and I think by the fact 9 that the people are rebuilding it speaks 10 well for itself. 11 And if there is no further discussion 12 on it I would make a Motion. 13 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: When you 14 say you're updating, can you just expand on 15 what exactly you are planning on doing? 16 MR. KODA: The curb structure has a 17 double brick knee wall and that serves as 18 the foundation and the foundation obviously 19 extends down into the ground the 42 inches, 20 we have checked that out. 21 And we're basically rebuilding the 22 room from the top of that double brick knee 23 wall up. We are going to replace the walls, 24 replace the windows and replace the door and
39 1 the roof. 2 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you 3 very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any other 5 comments? Member Wrobel? 6 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 7 Thank you for coming forward even though it 8 wasn't approved initially, that they just 9 went and did it. 10 My only concern is, will the 11 structures still meet City footing 12 requirements? 13 MR. KODA: As far as I know, yes, it 14 does. 15 MEMBER WROBEL: Does staff have any 16 comments on it? Will it meet it? 17 MR. FOX: It will be. 18 MEMBER WROBEL: Okay, I have no 19 problems with this then. Thank you. 20 MR. KODA: Thank you. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I have a comment 22 or a question, I should say. Trying to read 23 the information on one of the surveys it 24 shows the unit as being 10 foot by 18 foot,
40 1 and on the others it shows almost 12 foot by 2 10 foot. Which is the old and which is the 3 new because it's not identical in size 4 obviously? 5 MR. KODA: Yeah. I don't know. On 6 the mortgage survey it states that it's 7 18 feet. But when we measured it it is 8 17 feet 9 and a half inches. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: On that same one 10 it shows the width being 11 foot 11 inches 11 or almost 12 foot. 12 MR. KODA: Right. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: But on the 14 mortgage survey it only shows it being 15 10 foot. 16 MR. KODA: And I don't know why that 17 would be. Obviously if you look at the 18 outline there is a little nook or something 19 that's built into the back wall of the house 20 there so that it is not a straight line all 21 the way across. On the one side it's only 22 9 feet 8 inches and the other side as we 23 measure 11 feet 11 inches. The fact it 24 extends beyond the side of the house by
41 1 another 6 feet 3 inches that it doesn't even 2 line up with the side of the house. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I believe on the 4 mortgage survey on the northern side it 5 should read 12 feet instead of 10 feet. 6 MR. KODA: Right, it should say that, 7 yes, it should. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's the only 9 question I have. 10 Member Canup, were you prepared to 11 make a Motion? 12 MEMBER CANUP: I would make a Motion. 13 In case number: 07-057 by Tony V's Sunroom 14 and Spas that we grant the variance as 15 requested due to the considerations as set 16 up by the presenter. 17 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 19 and a second. Do we need further findings 20 in the Motion? 21 MR. SCHULTZ: I think the comments of 22 the maker of the Motion incorporates the 23 comments from either his earlier comments. 24 In fact, I think that that would be
42 1 sufficient, but obviously I think he has 2 explained the reason for the Motion in his 3 earlier comments. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So the previous 5 discussion would be included in the Motion? 6 MEMBER CANUP: As per previous 7 discussion, yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So we have a 11 Motion and a second. Any further 12 discussion? 13 Please call the roll. 14 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 15 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 16 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 17 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 19 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 22 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 24 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer?
43 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, sir. 6 MR. KODA: Thank you very much.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I appreciate 8 everyone keeping the tone down out in the 9 audience, that's very considerate and we 10 appreciate it. 11 12 Our next days case, Case number: 13 07-058 filed by John Douglas of 23820 -- 14 make sure I'm on the right one. Applicant 15 is requesting a variance to allow the 16 continued location of an established 17 residential hedge to remain at 23820 Lynwood 18 in Echo Valley Subdivision. The property is 19 zoned R-1 and located south of 10 Mile and 20 west of Beck Road. 21 Under the City Ordinances Section 2513 22 Corner Clearance states: No fence, wall, 23 plant material, sign or other obstruction to 24 vision above the height of two feet from the
44 1 established street grades shall be permitted 2 within the clear view zone, which I believe 3 is 50 feet on each side. Is that correct? 4 MEMBER BAUER: Twenty-five -- 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Twenty feet on 6 each side. The Applicant is a requesting 7 variance to the requirement of the 2-foot 8 maximum height for plant material. 9 I see the Applicant has come forward. 10 If you are not an attorney, please be sworn 11 by our secretary. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 13 to tell the truth regarding case: 07-058? 14 MR. DOUGLAS: Yes, I do. 15 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 17 your case. 18 MR. DOUGLAS: Pardon? 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 20 your case. 21 MR. DOUGLAS: My name is John Douglas. 22 My wife and I have lived at the current 23 address, 23820 Lynwood -- 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Sir, can
45 1 you get a little closer to the mike for us? 2 Thank you. 3 MR. DOUGLAS: How is that? We have 4 lived at 23820 Lynwood for the last 5 19 years. When we moved in there the hedge 6 in question was there at the time and was at 7 its same height that it is now. I have 8 maintained it at the same height. The hedge 9 is approximately 35-years-old. And I don't 10 know if that is prior to when the Ordinance 11 was put in. I don't even know if that's 12 material or not. It runs down Lynwood 13 approximately 148 feet then around the 14 corner down Rushwood approximately another 15 90 feet. 16 It's seven to eight feet tall. It's 17 very beautiful. Echo Valley is one of the 18 older subdivisions in Novi. It has a lot of 19 mature plants, trees and other Juniper 20 brushes like this. 21 This hedge is comprised of 59 22 individual Juniper plants and I have had 23 somebody come out and value them. They 24 couldn't give me an exact value. They gave
46 1 me a range of between 1,700 and I think 2 25,000 or something like that. And they 3 also gave me a cost to have them removed 4 which was a considerable amount. I believe 5 it's in the material that you have there. I 6 think it's something like $4,000. 7 Lynwood and Rushwood is a three-way 8 intersection. It's at the back of our 9 subdivision. It's not near the entrance of 10 the subdivision. It's a very low traffic 11 area. There are stop signs at each point at 12 that three-way intersection. As long as we 13 have lived there the least 19 years, there 14 have been no incidents, no accidents that we 15 know of, no traffic problems and none of our 16 neighbors have ever complained. 17 We wish to maintain that hedge at its 18 current status. So that's why I am here to 19 request that. Are there any other 20 questions? 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, sir. 22 This is a public hearing. At this time is 23 there anyone in the audience who cares to 24 come forward and speak on this matter?
47 1 I will close the public hearing and 2 ask the Vice-Chair to respond to any 3 correspondence. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 5 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 30 6 notices mailed with one approval and three 7 objections. 8 One approval from Timothy L. Madansky 9 (ph) of 23910 Woodham Road: Approves the 10 variance requested. It's his next door 11 neighbor and a shed will be in the corner 12 where his property line and my property 13 meet. 14 Mr. Olson takes great care of his 15 property and a storage -- it appears that 16 this one might be -- excuse me for one 17 second, Mr. Chair. 18 It appears, Mr. Chair, that that 19 belongs to the wood shed case, so I will 20 remove that. 21 MS. WORKING: Through the Chair. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING: It was verified that the 24 respondent mailed in on the Lynwood case.
48 1 It is indicated on the bottom of the letter. 2 I included it in the file. 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I'm sorry? 4 MS. WORKING: I said it was verified 5 that it was mailed in for the Lynwood case. 6 I thought it odd also, so I checked with the 7 respondent, and it was for the Lynwood case. 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. He 9 approves but he is talking about a wood 10 shed. We will have to take that into 11 consideration and maybe revisit that letter 12 in the other case as well. 13 The second. This is now into the 14 objections. Dan and Ann Shoop of 23899 15 Lynwood: Objection. The visibility at this 16 corner is greatly reduced by the size of the 17 present hedge. There have been many close 18 calls with cars, bikes, pedestrians. When 19 the subdivision was less populated it was 20 not an issue, but now there is increased 21 volume. 22 Second objection. Nancy Shaw of 23960 23 Lynwood: A strong objection. This high 24 hedge has existed too long and presents a
49 1 real danger to children and adults who walk 2 and ride. The hedges result in a blind 3 intersection that is in violation of a City 4 Ordinance. The objectioner has lived there 5 for 30 years and have seen these hedges grow 6 from a low complimentary hedge to an 7 overwhelming hazard to the subdivision. An 8 accident waiting to happen. 9 Jerry and Nancy Kohn of 23843 Lynwood 10 object as well: Difficult to see around, 11 stating that it's difficult to see around 12 hedges. Have to pull deep into 13 intersection. Dangerous for kids. Suggest 14 resident angles hedge inward if he wants 15 privacy and kind of draws a picture of kind 16 of a pushed back hedge just on the corner 17 for the intersection clearance. 18 Those are all the correspondence. 19 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 21 Any comments from the City? 22 MS. WORKING: Mr. Chair, you'll find 23 in your file from this evening the 24 supplement that the Petitioner brought to
50 1 the City today with those dollar amounts 2 indicated. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, thank you. 4 That will be part of the record. Any other 5 comments? 6 MS. WORKING: No. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Wrobel? 8 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 9 Towards City staff. When was Section 2513 10 incorporated into our Codes? 11 MEMBER BAUER: It's been quite some 12 time. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: While she is 14 looking that up, is there another question? 15 MEMBER WROBEL: Yeah, my other 16 question is, is there a grandfather 17 provision in it for any existing conditions 18 that were pre-existing? 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member 20 Schultz -- Mr. Schultz? 21 MR. SCHULTZ: I'm not sure that we are 22 going to be able to answer Member Wrobel's 23 question the timing of the adoption of 24 Section 2513 which really answers the second
51 1 question too, whether or not it's 2 non-conforming or grandfather, whatever 3 phrase you want to use. If the Board wants 4 to -- the Petitioner I think has not 5 obviously presented that as part of his 6 case, but if that's relevant to the Board's 7 inquiry I don't think we are going to answer 8 that tonight. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 10 MEMBER WROBEL: Another question I 11 have. Obviously this has been here for a 12 long time. Has there been any other 13 instances of the resident being notified 14 that he was not in compliance prior to this 15 one? And from this ticket it doesn't look 16 like there was. 17 MR. SCHULTZ: Again, through the 18 Chair. I think maybe over the past year or 19 maybe even slightly longer, I think there 20 have been conversations with the property 21 owner. I know it's been a subject of some 22 discussion here internally among the staff 23 whether this is something that should be 24 continued to be permitted or whether it's,
52 1 in fact, a violation. That was resolved by 2 writing the ticket. 3 So, from the City's perspective right 4 now, we haven't seen anything that 5 establishes that it's non-conforming or 6 otherwise permitted. But I don't know that 7 we have done a formal inquiry into that. 8 MEMBER WROBEL: Okay. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 10 MEMBER WROBEL: Looking at these 11 shrubs and they're beautiful and they didn't 12 grow to that height over night which leads 13 me to the reasoning, I am sure this section 14 has been on the books for a while. Why 15 wasn't it enforced prior to this? It just 16 leaves me with a question. 17 But on the other hand I also 18 understand that it does create a safety 19 hazard. And I wish there was something that 20 we can do about it. I hate to see them being 21 taken out, but I am very reluctant to 22 approve them because it is a safety hazard. 23 I don't know if there is anything we can do 24 in between to keep most of them or create
53 1 something so you can keep most of them, but 2 will also have more clearance at the 3 intersection. 4 So right now I will just listen to the 5 rest of my colleagues before I make my 6 decision. Thank you. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 8 Member Wrobel. 9 Other comments? Member Canup? 10 MEMBER CANUP: I guess I would have to 11 agree with some of the previous statements. 12 I don't really aesthetically have a problem 13 with them except they do hide the house and 14 I think they do create a hazard. And I 15 guess if they were mine I would want to keep 16 them also. But in the reality of things, 17 they have been allowed to grow beyond what 18 our Ordinances allow and I would have a 19 difficult time in voting positively for 20 letting them remain there in their present 21 state. If they could be trimmed and brought 22 down to the two foot I wouldn't have a 23 problem with it. But I think from my 24 experience of those when they grow that
54 1 large there is just not much you can do with 2 them other than yank them out and reclaim 3 the land and plant some sod or plant some 4 other shrubs there to replace those. 5 End of my comments. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 7 Member Canup. 8 Other comments? I have a question or 9 two. First to the City. Were we successful 10 at all with the history on this property? 11 MS. WORKING: I e-mailed you the 12 information that was forwarded to me. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: All right. That 14 didn't help. 15 You had indicated, the Applicant has 16 indicated that he has lived there 19 years 17 and it has never been brought up before, 18 correct? 19 MR. DOUGLAS: Not until probably about 20 four years ago. Then the Ordinance officer 21 left me a note. I called her back and talked 22 to her. And then it kind of fell by the way 23 side, nobody ever contacted me again. 24
55 1 Same thing happened the following 2 year and the same thing again. And then the 3 last year I called the enforcement officer 4 and I said let's make an appointment, come 5 out to my property and we'll talk about this 6 and we'll measure it out. She told me, 7 well, just see if you can trim the one side 8 of it because the bus driver doesn't like 9 the branches sticking out. But I trim it 10 every year anyway. So, I went out and I 11 trimmed it. I think I called her back and I 12 said, well, can we get together? And she 13 said just sit tight for now and I'll call 14 you if I need you. Nothing ever became of 15 it. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, the house is 17 40 years old? 18 MR. DOUGLAS: It was built in '58. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So there was 20 21 years prior to your residence and we have 21 no knowledge of what may or may not have 22 happened prior to? 23 MR. DOUGLAS: Well, that's correct. I 24 do know there are neighbors that are there
56 1 that were there before we came in, and 2 nobody has ever mentioned any incident or 3 anything that has happened there. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The sides are 5 neatly trimmed and I know it would be 6 extremely difficult to trim the top, but, of 7 course, when you don't trim the top it just 8 keeps getting taller and taller. 9 One of the questions that I would have 10 is if we were to grant a variance for this 11 and an incident does occur at that 12 intersection, is there any liability that 13 the City would hold? 14 MR. SCHULTZ: The question is largely 15 answered by whether or not those are in our 16 right of way, and I don't know the answer to 17 that. If they are, the answer is it could 18 be an issue. 19 And I guess the other answer is, we 20 have an Ordinance that talks about the clear 21 vision triangle for public health, safety 22 and welfare purposes which is as part of any 23 zoning variance that you are inclined to 24 grant a finding that you would have to make.
57 1 That it is, in fact, consistent with the 2 public health, safety and welfare, and I 3 suspect that is the issue that you all are 4 going to have with this particular item 5 based upon the comments and the Ordinance 6 standard. 7 MR. DOUGLAS: I would just like to 8 iterate if I could -- 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, go ahead. 10 MR. DOUGLAS: That there are stop 11 signs there and, again, it is a very low 12 traffic area. I wouldn't even say that we 13 got 20 cars coming through there. There is 14 a newer subdivision that's in the south of 15 us and the outer lying streets in Echo 16 Valley run into that subdivision, so there 17 wouldn't be any reason for anybody to come 18 down Rushwood or Lynwood unless they lived 19 in that area visiting somebody. 20 I do want to make that point. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I understand 22 that. It is a beautiful hedge. 23 MR. SCHULTZ: Mr. Chair, if I just may 24 add to the previous answer. Mr. Fox just
58 1 pointed out, and it isn't a survey, but it's 2 off the GIS system which shows that the 3 corner of that hedge row is, in fact, in the 4 City right-of-way. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is in the City 6 right-of-way? 7 MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. It's a relevant 8 inquiry. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That is my 10 biggest concern is the safety and the 11 implications that may incur to the City. We 12 are here to enforce the Ordinances and to 13 make sure that the City doesn't fall into 14 those type activities. So I have a real 15 concern about that. 16 Member Canup, do you have additional 17 comments? 18 MEMBER CANUP: It's kind of like 19 getting a speeding ticket and going and 20 telling the judge that you have been 21 speeding for 30 years and got away with it. 22 You have been very fortunate that you have 23 been able to let those grow and get away 24 with it for 20 years or whatever it's been
59 1 there. But I think it's time that we act on 2 it, especially to the fact that some of 3 those shrubs are located in the City 4 right-of-way and our Ordinance is very clear 5 that they can't be over two feet tall. So 6 if they were three feet tall that would be a 7 different story. But when they have grown 8 as well as they have and been taken care of 9 as well as they have, they seem to have 10 gotten out of hand. And I had some similar 11 at my home and I had to pull them out 12 because they were out of hand. 13 So with that, if there is no further 14 discussion I would make a Motion. There is 15 further discussion I will not make a Motion. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, there is 17 some further discussion. 18 Member Fischer? 19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Did we get 20 any clarification? We're not going to get 21 any clarification on the whole grandfather 22 issue tonight. In general, I don't think I 23 would feel comfortable voting on this until 24 we get the information that Member Wrobel
60 1 had requested first and foremost. 2 Second of all, I would almost be 3 inclined to look at some type of compromise 4 as one of the objectioners had suggested 5 where there was some of the corner maybe 6 taken off so there is more clearance. 7 And I would like some additional 8 information from our City attorney regarding 9 the right-of-way issue, the legality of it 10 all. So, I absolutely do not feel 11 comfortable voting on this one tonight 12 without those things said. 13 Unfortunately, I do think it does look 14 very nice and if I had something for 20 15 years I wouldn't want to get rid of it 16 either, so I would like to try to get some 17 type of compromise where the majority can be 18 kept at least. 19 But one of our biggest things up here 20 is the safety and welfare of the residents 21 and other visitors to the city. So, I think 22 we need that additional information. Thank 23 you, Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Sanghvi?
61 1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 2 As far as I'm concerned there is no 3 compromise as far as safety is concerned. 4 If one child is hit by a car because the 5 child didn't stop at the stop sign, that is 6 one too many, it's not a question of 7 liability. It's a question of human 8 suffering and many other things. And as far 9 as I am concerned if it is a safety hazard, 10 there is no place for it. Thank you. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 12 Member Krieger? 13 MEMBER KRIEGER: I would also like to 14 see as Member Fischer pointed out, the 15 information to be presented for us before we 16 make a final decision. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: One of the 18 things that I will state, if we end up 19 tabling this, which it appears that we may 20 be going in that direction, please get with 21 the City, talk with the City forester, the 22 arbores maybe some type of compromise can be 23 worked out in trimming or cutting back or 24 removing part of it. Because I have to
62 1 agree with Member Sanghvi and others, safety 2 is the number one concern and we got to make 3 sure we can protect our people. Is somebody 4 going to make a Motion? 5 Member Canup? 6 MEMBER CANUP: Grandfather or no 7 grandfather, I still think those things need 8 to come down. It's a safety situation. And 9 as Mav stated, I don't think any of us here 10 would feel very well if there was an 11 accident there and we neglected to do our 12 duty to make that safe. 13 So, with that I would make a Motion 14 that in case number: 07-058 that we deny 15 the Petitioner's request as stated due to 16 the hardships as stated by the Board members 17 in the previous conversation. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Second. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 20 and a second. But let's hear from our 21 attorney. 22 MR. SCHULTZ: If I could just ask 23 for some clarification. As I understood the 24 Motion Maker's comments the first time
63 1 around he is incorporating those; is that 2 correct? When you spoke a few moments ago. 3 MEMBER CANUP: Yes, all of the 4 comments that were made by Board members. 5 MR. SCHULTZ: Just a clarification 6 that ultimately the finding by the Motion 7 Maker is that this is not in the public 8 health, safety and welfare, not a safe 9 condition left as the proponent is 10 requesting; is that correct? 11 MEMBER CANUP: Yes, that's correct. 12 MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We will include 14 that in the Motion. Thank you. 15 Any further discussion? Please call 16 the roll. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 18 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 22 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No.
64 1 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 2 MEMBER WROBEL: No. 3 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: No. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: No. 7 MS. WORKING: Motion to deny fails 8 3-4. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I will entertain 10 another Motion. Member Fischer? 11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Chair, 12 I move that we postpone case number: 07-058 13 filed by John Douglas and request that City 14 staff and Counsel prepare the documents 15 requested by Member Wrobel, myself and other 16 Board members. 17 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 18 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 20 and two seconds. We'll take the first 21 second. The first second was Member 22 Krieger. 23 Any further discussion? Please call 24 the roll.
65 1 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 2 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 6 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 8 MEMBER CANUP: No. 9 MS. WORKING: Chair Shroyer? 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: No. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 14 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel may I have 16 your vote one more time, please. 17 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 18 MS. WORKING: Motion to postpone 19 passes 5-2. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Sir, 21 do you understand what happened this 22 evening? 23 MR. DOUGLAS: No, I don't. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The Board has
66 1 elected to table your case until our next 2 meeting which will be in October to give the 3 City an opportunity to put together the 4 information that we have requested so we 5 have full understanding of the case. And I 6 would still encourage you to talk to the 7 City forester and perhaps the arbores or 8 whatever in seeing what other compromises 9 may be able to come forward. 10 We would like to see you back again in 11 October where we could review the case once 12 again. 13 You still may get denied at that point, but 14 it gives you an opportunity to re-present 15 your case. 16 MR. DOUGLAS: Will you notify me then? 17 Or do I have to reapply for an appeal? 18 MS. WORKING: You will receive another 19 meeting notification along with a copy of 20 the public hearing letter if there is any 21 additional or new information that needs to 22 be published. The meeting date is 23 October 9th at 7:30 here. 24 MR. DOUGLAS: Do I need to go through
67 1 the filing process like I did the first 2 time? 3 MS. WORKING: No. 4 MR. DOUGLAS: So, this will be on the 5 agenda and I will just show up? 6 MS. WORKING: That's correct. And I 7 will contact you just to verify that 8 everything is clear. 9 MR. DOUGLAS: Okay. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Mr. Douglas, to 11 ease your mind if you want to call Robin 12 tomorrow she may be able to explain it in 13 more detail. 14 MR. DOUGLAS: Okay. Thank you very 15 much. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Or by the 18 end of the week. Tomorrow sometimes tends 19 to be a busy day for her. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Especially if 21 she has got a late night tonight. 22 23 All right. Moving on. Case 24 number 07-060 filed by Albert La Londe of
68 1 Creative Designs & Signs, Incorporated for 2 46325 Twelve Mile Road Keystone Medical. 3 The Applicant is requesting a 45.5 4 square foot area variance and 3 foot 9 inch 5 height variance for the placement of a 77.5 6 square foot ground sign to be located at 7 said address. The property is zoned OST and 8 located south of Twelve Mile and east of 9 West Park Drive. 10 The City of Novi Ordinances Section 11 28-5(2)a.1.i. and 28-5(2)a.2.ii states that 12 area height and placement regulations, 13 ground signs shall not exceed a maximum of 14 30 square feet. Ground sign shall not 15 exceed a height of six feet. 16 The Applicant has come forth. If you 17 are not an attorney, please be sworn in by 18 our Secretary. 19 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 20 the answers to your questions -- to our 21 questions on 07-060? 22 MR. LA LONDE: I do. 23 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state your
69 1 case. 2 MR. LALONDE: I'm Al La Londe 3 with Creative Designs & Signs. We have 4 reviewed this project back and forth trying 5 to create signage that the patients coming 6 into this medical facility can find. We 7 have a wall sign that I wasn't involved with 8 on the wall right now, it's on a large, 9 close to three-story building I think. 10 It doesn't seem to help people get 11 into this facility, so we tried to work with 12 a ground sign that we could design and we 13 built prototype. We moved it all over the 14 property. We found a good location, and 15 then we increased the size to where we felt 16 that we could see the sign properly from the 17 road. 18 It's a little difficult. The road is 19 just lower than the site and it makes it 20 real difficult to see the sign. We tried 21 many, many different types of ways to get 22 the sign to work for us. We came up with 23 this design and it was approved through the 24 owners. And we are submitting it as is.
70 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is that it? 2 MR. LA LONDE: That's close. We have 3 the owners of the building here and we have 4 a doctor that is in a large lease space in 5 the building. They would like to -- they 6 probably will have comments if they can also 7 be involved in this. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: If they care to 9 come forward now we can swear them in and 10 they can make comments. 11 MR. EMORY (ph): Hi. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please be sworn 13 in by our Secretary. 14 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 15 to tell the truth regarding case: 07-060? 16 MR. EMORY: I do. 17 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: State your name. 19 MR. EMORY: My name is Allen Emory. I 20 am the managing member of Women's Health 21 Consultants which is a group of seven 22 obstetricians and gynecologists that lease 23 space in Keystone Medical Center. 24 We moved our practice last year from
71 1 Farmington Hills out to the Novi area and 2 out to Keystone and brought a patient base 3 of 20,000 to 25,000 patients. The bulk of 4 those patients are coming from areas, at 5 least currently, we hope to have more 6 patients from Novi, but currently the 7 majority of our patients are coming from our 8 suburbs as well as the City of Detroit. 9 We have had an issue because we have 10 extended hours. We start seeing patients at 11 7 in the morning, we have evening hours, and 12 along with daylight savings time going away, 13 we have hours in the building that are not 14 during sunlight and it makes it extremely 15 difficult for our patients to find the 16 building. 17 We sent out 20,000 maps to our 18 patients and it's still very difficult to 19 identify, especially since that entire 20 corridor from along 12 Mile from Beck to 21 Novi is getting more populated. And more 22 building going on there we need something to 23 identify the building for our patients. 24 We have had patients really get lost
72 1 coming from other areas. The signage on the 2 building itself now is kind of high and I 3 think it's a safety issue for people driving 4 along the street trying to look up to the 5 top of the building to find the building in 6 early hours with no sunlight or even during 7 daylight hours it can become a problem. 8 In addition to us in that building 9 there are several other occupants. One of 10 them is a rehab center that sees patients 11 starting I believe at 6:30 or 7:00 in the 12 morning also and runs into the evening 13 hours. So, identification of the building 14 has been an issue for the last year. And we 15 are looking forward to our patients not 16 having problems finding our location. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 18 MR. EMORY: Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Anyone else in 20 your group care to speak? Please be sworn 21 in and state your name and address. 22 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear 23 or affirm to tell the truth regarding case: 24 07-060?
73 1 MR. MARCUS: I do. 2 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 3 MR. MARCUS: Good evening. My name is 4 Scott Marcus. I am the managing member of 5 Keystone Medical Center, the owner of the 6 property. Through the last year, year and a 7 half we have tried a number of different 8 avenues to try and help the problem that we 9 have had. We started out with black 10 letters, black address. We started out with 11 the Keystone logo up on the building, that 12 didn't work. So we changed the color of the 13 address, made it white. Made the letters a 14 little larger. We put a white backing behind 15 the Keystone logo that is currently there. 16 And neither avenue really helped. So this 17 is kind of our last resort after we have 18 tried a number of different things to try 19 and help the individual tenants in the 20 building and help their patients. Thank 21 you. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 23 Anyone else with your group? 24 MR. EMORY: I'm sorry?
74 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Anyone else with 2 your group who care to speak? 3 MR. EMORY: No, no. Thank you. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: All right. Thank 5 you. This is a public hearing so at this 6 time I'll open up the case to anyone in the 7 audience that cares to speak. 8 Seeing none, we'll ask the Vice-Chair 9 to respond to any notices. 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 11 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 20 12 notices mailed. One approval, zero 13 objections. 14 The approval is from Edwin, starts 15 with a B, looks like O-G-R-A-N, and that's 16 the managing partner of Marlean (ph) 17 Associates at 3775 Terry Brook Road, West 18 Bloomfield, Michigan. Has no objection to 19 the requested variances. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. I do 21 need to close the public hearing and make it 22 all official here. 23 Is there any comments from the 24 City?
75 1 MR. AMOLSCH: No comments, sir. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Open it up to 3 the ZBA members. Yes, Mr. Bauer -- Member 4 Bauer. 5 MEMBER BAUER: That sign is on top of 6 a berm, is it not? 7 MR. EMORY: It's the grade of the 8 property, yes. There is not a built berm, 9 it's the grade of the property. 10 MEMBER BAUER: I think if there was a 11 tree taken down you wouldn't have that 12 problem of seeing your sign. You got those 13 trees on either side right up to it. 14 MR. EMORY: If a sign was 15 located in that place which before there was 16 no area designed to have a sign, I think 17 there is going to be some landscaping things 18 done to make the sign more visible. A 19 30-square foot sign viewed from the road 20 traffic, you can't see it. If all the trees 21 were gone, it is a small sign for the space 22 of that property, it's a vast piece of 23 property, and it's a large building. 24 When we were working with the
76 1 30-square foot sign trying to design where 2 it would fit right in the property to see 3 it, it was very difficult. The Keystone 4 logo on the sign that you have in front of 5 you is 25 square feet which is just under 6 the allowed square footage. It was just 7 not, it wasn't visible. We tried different 8 applications in different locations. 9 The landscaping will change when a 10 sign is put in there, but they don't want to 11 get rid of the trees. That was all in their 12 building permit and their landscaping theme. 13 They will not get rid of trees. They will 14 move them away and in back of the sign I'm 15 sure. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Fine. Thank you. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 18 Member Bauer. 19 Other comments? Member Sanghvi? 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Alan, do 21 they have any other sign on this property 22 apart from this ground sign? 23 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes, there is currently 24 a wall sign on the building, 65 square feet
77 1 in area on top of the building. 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: This is an additional 3 sign? 4 MR. AMOLSCH: It's an addition sign 5 which is permitted under the OST Zoning 6 Ordinance. So that's not an issue, it's 7 just the size and the height. 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, thanks very 9 much. 10 I appreciate your problems because 11 it's not very easy to find your place unless 12 you are right there and looking at it or 13 unless you are coming from the West Park 14 Drive or somewhere else and you need 15 something to identify such a huge place. I 16 have no problem with that. 17 The issue is what size is the right 18 size for your property and your business. 19 How many square feet have you got there? 20 MR. EMORY: On that sign? 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: On this Keystone 22 Medical Center? 23 MR. EMORY: Do you have the square 24 footage? 65,000.
78 1 MEMBER SANGHVI: 65,000 square feet. 2 And you have already seven OBGYN physicians 3 there already as you just stated? 4 MR. EMORY: Yes. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Are you going to have 6 any more physicians? 7 MR. EMORY: Yes. 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: You say you have a 9 spine center or something on it? 10 MR. MARCUS: If I may. We are about 11 75 percent leased in the building now with 12 25 percent left. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: My question to 14 you is, are you going to use this as a 15 ground sign or a marquis? 16 MR. MARCUS: A what sign? 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: A marquis, putting 18 all the doctors' names and everything else 19 on it? 20 MR. MARCUS: As it stands it will be a 21 combination of the two. It will be a ground 22 sign with the larger tenants having an 23 opportunity to have their name on there as 24 well, again, so their patients can locate
79 1 them. There is a pharmacy that will have 2 their name, Michigan Head and Spine, 3 Physical Therapy, Women's Health and then we 4 have room for future large tenants. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. As some of 6 you know I have been in medical business for 7 50 years. 8 MEMBER BAUER: You still are. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: I am retired now, 10 that's why I'm doing this. But the point is 11 it is a very real issue when people can't 12 find your place. And especially when woman 13 and children are coming looking for you in 14 our weather conditions and other things. 15 You do need some way of identifying on that 16 two-way highway almost that 12 Mile Road is. 17 So, I have no problem in that request and I 18 have no difficulty in actually supporting 19 their request as they have requested. Thank 20 you. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 22 Member Sanghvi. 23 Other comments? Member Canup? 24 MEMBER CANUP: Do I understand that
80 1 the word Keystone Medical Center appears on 2 the building? 3 MR. EMORY: It does. 4 MEMBER CANUP: It looks like somewhere 5 less than maybe 40 percent of your sign is 6 consumed by the words Keystone Medical and 7 your street address at the bottom. 8 Al, is there provisions also for an 9 allowance for a street address to be located 10 on a building? 11 MR. AMOLSCH: It's required to be on 12 the building by Ordinance. Many times we put 13 the signs or the address on the ground signs 14 also. We don't count that as sign area. 15 MEMBER CANUP: It looks to be also the 16 word for lease. Is that a permanent thing 17 that's on there? 18 MR. EMORY: No. That's where a 19 potential tenant would take that space. 20 That's reserved for a potential tenant. 21 MEMBER CANUP: If you look at the sign 22 about 40 percent of it is excess. 23 MR. MARCUS: I can appreciate the 24 comment. One of the things that we did when
81 1 we developed the project is be branded -- 2 MEMBER CANUP: Mr. Chairman -- 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sir, if we -- 4 Please continue. 5 MEMBER CANUP: I was done. I know 6 that it was out of order if he just stands 7 up and speak. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. We 9 will call on you if we have a question. 10 Other comments? I have a question. 11 MR. MARCUS: For me? 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Whoever can 13 answer it. You talked about moving the 14 landscaping. I assume the landscaping was 15 part of the original plan that was approved 16 by the City? 17 MR. MARCUS: Yes. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Have you talked 19 to them about moving the landscaping for the 20 signage? 21 MR. MARCUS: We preliminary did when 22 we had site plan approval and planning and 23 with the potential down the road that we 24 would have a sign, and they were open to it
82 1 as long as, and it was a very stern as long 2 as, we don't remove it and relocate it. 3 They were very conscientious and so were we 4 in the quantity of trees and the specie and 5 we were going to continue that. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Heading west, 7 there is one large arborvitae, I believe 8 there are three arborvitaes and the one is 9 the one that really stands in the way. My 10 personal opinion is if that arborvitae was 11 moved that you wouldn't need this large a 12 sign because people would be able to see it 13 further back. 14 So, what I am leaning toward is the 15 possibility of a reduction. I think a sign 16 would be good. I agree with the size of the 17 business. You need a monument sign out 18 front. The sign on the building is not 19 going to help you that much which is 20 evidenced by your responses. 21 I think it's a very attractive sign. 22 I understand the need to have the slots for 23 the primary users of the facility and even 24 the leasing portion of it. I agree with
83 1 Member Canup that perhaps the street address 2 is not needed since we do require that the 3 street address be on the building. But I 4 would be inclined to approve something that 5 was somewhat smaller in size. 6 That's my comment. Further comments 7 from the group? 8 MEMBER BAUER: I agree. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Bauer 10 agrees with me. Any other comments? 11 Member Canup? 12 MEMBER CANUP: If you remove the 13 address on the bottom and drop the sign 14 down, that's two feet off from it by 10, 15 that's 24, 20 square feet. And the word 16 Keystone -- does the word Keystone appear on 17 the building in a legible fashion viewable 18 from the road? In other words, when you get 19 to the building you can look at it and say 20 it's Keystone. And there is another two and 21 a half feet by 10 feet. So you have got 22 another 25 square feet, so you could 23 eliminate roughly 50 square feet off the 24 sign real easily.
84 1 And, again, those are redundant items 2 that appear on the building and you still 3 wouldn't be affecting the identification of 4 the residents of the building. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Fischer? 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 7 Mr. Chair. I would tend to agree with many 8 of the comments made and the fact that I 9 believe at this time the sign would be too 10 large and I would actually ask the 11 Petitioner if they had any kind of ripcord 12 actions that they have thought of. Taking 13 some of the suggestions that we have made. 14 Taking the address off or making Keystone 15 smaller or making the whole sign shrink it 16 down proportionately or taking out one of 17 the lines for tenants. Have you guys 18 considered doing anything to meet our 19 requirement that we would request that it be 20 a little smaller? 21 MR. MARCUS: Our personal opinion is 22 to always design something that fits 23 aesthetically with the building and not to 24 be massive and overbearing.
85 1 The reason that these items are included, 2 when we design and develop the site there is 3 going to be a building behind it as well, 4 Phase Two. We branded it as Keystone 5 Medical Center and many of the physicians 6 have used that name and that logo in their 7 marketing materials and in their business 8 cards and what not. 9 So, oftentimes a patient is going to 10 Keystone Medical Center and they are looking 11 for that. That's why we put the name on the 12 building thinking, okay, they will be able 13 to find it easy with that and we didn't 14 really contemplate needing a ground sign at 15 that point. 16 So, having the logo and the name 17 on the monument is really important because 18 all the patients know the name. And it's 19 intended that they continue to know the 20 name. It's a lot easier to locate a 21 building when it's named like this rather 22 than the building across from the gas 23 station next to the fire station, so we 24 branded it intentionally.
86 1 The address, it is duplication of the 2 building, but, again, some people identify a 3 building with its name and some identify it 4 with an address. I think if we eliminate 5 the address, we are doing a disservice to 6 those that are visiting because they may be 7 looking for the address. The only place it 8 is is up on the building, and as we found, 9 people don't see it. 10 The other think to consider is we 11 sort of analyze is it too big too small is, 12 eventually, and I think planning has already 13 hinted to it, is that this road is going to 14 be widened into four lanes. 15 When it is, then what? Now all 16 of a sudden you really have a lot more 17 traffic and a lot more speed than what you 18 have today. I know that if you head east, 19 you can't, I even pass it sometimes. You 20 can't -- it's very, very difficult to see 21 the building because of the lack of 22 development on the west side. 23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And what 24 about the comment I made about taking one of
87 1 the items out for tenants? Have you 2 considered that? The reason I say this is 3 is because the sentiment I am getting from 4 the Board right now is that if we go at the 5 current size, this will not be approved. 6 That's the sentiment I'm getting so I am 7 asking for your input so we can maybe make 8 some suggestions. 9 MR. MARCUS: I appreciate that. I 10 think if there were anything to eliminate 11 the size, I think that eliminating one row 12 would be most acceptable. If we squeeze 13 down each tenant name, that's going to do a 14 disservice to each letter and it's going to 15 be too small to even see, so what's the 16 point in that. If we eliminate one row, the 17 only issue we have with it is as we have 18 additional tenants, there is going to be a 19 tenant or two that is not going to have 20 their name on the sign, it's something that 21 they would obviously want. 22 If there were one item to remove and 23 to make it smaller, I would say that the 24 logo is very important. The address is very
88 1 important. And if we had to eliminate one 2 row where you see the for lease sign, we 3 could eliminate that and make it smaller. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I 5 appreciate wanting to have those tenants on 6 there. I would almost equate it to the mall 7 we have had. All the anchor stores want big 8 ones. I'm sure all the little stores want 9 big signs that are 300 square feet too, but 10 we can't allow that. And I can't see 11 allowing additional variance for people to 12 advertise in this matter. 13 They can potentially make it ten rows 14 high and add every single tenant on there. 15 So, I would look to maybe take that row out 16 and I will leave it up to the Board for 17 other comments. 18 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sir, did you 20 want to make a comment? 21 MR. EMORY: Yes. Even though we are 22 not an emergency room. I think that with 23 seven obstetricians and gynecologists, at 24 the very least we are an urgent center.
89 1 Our hours of operation are 2 extended. Most women that end up coming to 3 us, certainly we see women coming in for 4 routine exams. On the other hand, we have 5 women coming in who are pregnant and worried 6 about the welfare of their pregnancy. We 7 have women that are bleeding and they are 8 worried about not only bleeding in their 9 car, they are worried about getting to us on 10 time. And I don't think you 11 can minimize the importance, and it goes 12 behind, sir, I think advertising. It's 13 really a matter of, we have women that are 14 scared and worried and they want to get to 15 our office quickly. 16 It's either coming to see us or going to an 17 emergency room for a number of gynecologic 18 conditions. So, visibility to me is 19 extremely important. Making sure that 20 parents coming down that street which at 21 45 miles per hour in that stretch, if people 22 have to start straining to see it again, we 23 are going to defeat the whole issue. I 24 think the ease in which patients can find us
90 1 goes beyond commercialism and I think goes 2 towards the patient care. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 4 There has been several comments, several 5 recommendations, several areas of 6 discussion. One of the things that I 7 continue to look at, and I agree that the 8 Keystone Medical Center is important to have 9 on the sign. A lot of people don't look up. 10 They are at eye level and that's what 11 they're really looking for. I think it's 12 important to have it there. I am not sure 13 it needs to quite that large because you 14 also have the symbol of a keystone, so 15 that's recognizable as well it's not just 16 the words. 17 The other thought that I am 18 looking at is the address could always be 19 moved up beside that area. Outside the 20 Keystone but to the side of one of the 21 sections. While I'm thinking about it, I 22 hadn't thought about this earlier. If you 23 have the rendering, could you please put it 24 on the overhead so our audience can see it
91 1 as well. Poor people are sitting out here 2 not knowing what we're talking about, this 3 may help. 4 That perhaps the address could be 5 moved to the side, the one gentleman 6 mentioned urgent care. Maybe you can put 7 urgent care on the other side of it. 8 There are a couple ways that you could do 9 that and actually make the sign smaller 10 which may please the majority of the Board 11 members. 12 Comments? 13 MR. EMORY: We have the pedestal below 14 the sign where the address is and it was 15 mentioned as 24 inches tall. We could lower 16 that a little. That lower portion where the 17 address is is to hide the ugly pole within 18 it, the two poles in this case. It's a pole 19 cover. It's not actually equated in the 20 square footage at all. It's not part of the 21 sign at all. 22 We could lower that somewhat, but 23 we don't want to get the sign down into the 24 ground as well. So we could bring that down
92 1 just a little too, we would be happy to do 2 something like that. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, you are 4 looking at the possibility of lowering the 5 sign and removing one of the sections for 6 the tenants? 7 MR. EMORY: If that's necessary. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We'll go back to 9 the Board. Any further comments on this? 10 Member Canup? 11 MEMBER CANUP: I think it's pretty 12 much agreed upon, at least it appears to be, 13 that the size is too big. I think if we 14 limit the size of the sign to what I came up 15 with was 8 by 8, it's now roughly 10 by 10. 16 It's 9 foot 5 by 10 foot. So if we limit it 17 to 8 by 8 and put what you want on it, I 18 think that would be to me would be 19 acceptable. And then if they want to put 20 Keystone on the top or they want to put 21 residents on the top, that's up to them. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Leave the 23 address at the bottom?
24 MEMBER CANUP: We give them a
93 1 sign size and you can do what, within those 2 parameters of that sign, do what you want to 3 do. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Do you care to 5 make a Motion to that? 6 MEMBER CANUP: I would make a Motion 7 that in -- what's the case number? 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: 07-060. 9 MEMBER CANUP: 07-060, that we grant 10 the request as stated with a sign not to 11 exceed an extremities of 8 foot by 8 foot 12 for reasons as discussed by this Board. 13 MR. SCHULTZ: As I understand the
14 Motion, through the Chair, 8 by 8 and no 15 discussion as to what can go on it? 16 MEMBER CANUP: That's correct. If 17 they want to put Keystone on the top or take 18 off the numbers on the bottom that's their 19 wish. 20 MR. SCHULTZ: That's fine. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's a Motion 22 -- 23 MEMBER BAUER: I'll second it. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a
94 1 second. Any further discussion from the 2 Board? 3 Sir, did you want to make a last 4 comment before we vote? We have a Motion on 5 the floor? 6 MR. EMORY: I just have a question. It 7 was hard to hear you. Are you saying 8 by 8 8 for the allowable square footage of the 9 sign? 10 MEMBER CANUP: The 10 is from ground 11 level 8-foot high, 8-foot wide. 12 MR. EMORY: Total from grade? 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: From grade. 14 MEMBER CANUP: From grade, right. 15 MR. EMORY: So, you are including the 16 pedestal as part of the equation? 17 MEMBER CANUP: The top of the sign 18 cannot be more than 8 foot from grade. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 20 and a second. 21 Robin, please call the roll. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 23 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer?
95 1 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Chair Shroyer? 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 8 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 9 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 10 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 12 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You have an 14 approval but for the sign 64 square foot, 8 15 foot by 8 foot. 16 MR. EMORY: Okay, thank you. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. It 18 has been typical with the Zoning Board of 19 Appeals that if we meet for a period of 20 90 minutes we take a short break. So at 21 this time I am going to call for a break, a 22 recess. We'll be back in 10 minutes. Thank 23 you. 24 (A recess was held.)
96 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: May I have 2 your attention, please. We are going to 3 start the meeting back up again. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Chair, 5 might I interject for one minute prior to 6 getting started with the next case? 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, sir. 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Given that 9 we do have a rotating audience, it seems 10 like some people may have come and may have 11 left. I do want to as being Vice-Chair and 12 in charge of rules, I do want to remind 13 everyone that on the front of the agenda the 14 rules are presented. 15 During the first half of the 16 meeting I did hear several cell phones and 17 pagers, so please go ahead and turn those 18 off at this time or at least on to vibrate. 19 And if you are going to take a call, please 20 make sure you step far out into the chamber. 21 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I would also 23 like to add, anyone that came in later, we 24 have provided in the back of the room cards
97 1 that need to completed for anyone that wants 2 to speak during the public comment. So we 3 will do that during each case. If I call 4 you to come forward to speak on the case 5 then you will need to bring that card 6 forward and give it to our recording 7 secretary. 8 9 All right, at this time we are ready 10 to call our next case which is Case number: 11 07-061 filed by Keith Murray of Sign 12 Graphix, Incorporated for 47601 Grand River 13 Avenue, Providence Park Campus. 14 The Applicant is requesting five 15 ground sign variances for the new Providence 16 Park Campus located at 47601 Grand River 17 Avenue. Request one 269 square foot 18 illuminated ground sign to be located at the 19 Beck Road Grand River intersection 20 indicating the main entrance to the campus. 21 One 119-square foot illuminated ground sign 22 to be located along Grand River Avenue 23 indicating an emergency entrance. One 24 119-square foot illuminated ground sign to
98 1 be located at Grand River entrance to the 2 Providence Park Village Center. One 3 19.25-square foot ground sign to be located 4 along Beck Road to indicate staff entrance 5 and one 119 square foot illuminated sign to 6 be located along Beck Road indicating an 7 emergency entrance. 8 This property is zoned OSC and 9 located west of Beck and south of Grand 10 River. 11 I will not go into reading all 12 the City Ordinances regarding that. It is 13 in the agenda if anybody cares to read that. 14 At this point I see our Applicant
15 has come forward. 16 MS. KRIEGER: Mr. Chair, I would like 17 to recuse myself. I do believe, though, I 18 would provide an objective answer. I have 19 no personal financial gain with Providence 20 Park, but I am an employee at the main 21 hospital in Southfield, but I would like to 22 leave it to my peers to decide whether I 23 should leave or not. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you for
99 1 disclosing that. Is there anyone on our 2 Board that feel that Member Krieger needs to 3 recuse herself from voting? 4 MR. SCHULTZ: Just a clarification. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, sir. 6 MR. SCHULTZ: So you actually work for 7 Providence or St. John? 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: I work for 9 Providence/St. John at main in intensive 10 care. 11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Chair, 12 I will be the Board member. Given that it 13 is an employee and this is a satellite of 14 it, I believe, I think it would be most 15 appropriate at this time for Member Krieger, 16 unfortunately, while I do believe you would 17 give an objective opinion, I think to avoid 18 all appearance of impropriety to recuse 19 yourself at this time. 20 MR. SCHULTZ: Can we do it in a motion 21 to recuse? 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. We need a 23 Motion and a second on that. 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I
100 1 would move that -- or does she make a 2 Motion? 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You do it. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would 5 move that we grant the request to allow 6 Member Krieger to recuse herself from this 7 case. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 9 and a second. May I do an all in favor or 10 do we need a roll call? 11 MR. SCHULTZ: All in favor is fine. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: All in favor say 13 aye? 14 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Opposed same 16 sign. Please excuse yourself. You may 17 return after this case when the next case 18 begins. Thank you. 19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Might we 20 also add that, and mention to the 21 Petitioner, you may handle it however you 22 wish, that we now only have six members
23 voting on this case as opposed to the normal 24 seven.
101 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Obviously you 2 heard that. 3 So, at this time we are ready to move 4 forward. If you are not an attorney. You 5 are an attorney? Not an attorney. Please 6 swear in and give your name and address. 7 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 8 to tell the truth on case: 07-061? 9 MR. LUTZ: I do. 10 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 11 MR. LUTZ: My name is Bill Lutz, with 12 Sign Graphix at 39255 Country Club Drive, 13 Farmington Hills, Michigan. 14 If I may ask the Chair if we can 15 dim the lights because most of my 16 presentation is going to be on the board? 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Absolutely. 18 MR. LUTZ: If we could, I would 19 appreciate it. 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: See how 21 powerful he is? 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I can blink my 23 eye -- 24 MR. LUTZ: You would be too, Mr.
102 1 Fischer. 2 I think we probably ought to start 3 with some background on this campus. Most 4 of you know that this campus has been here 5 for a number of years. It has mostly been 6 an outpatient facility. It is a 200-acre 7 piece of land. 8 And I'll talk a little bit about 9 distances between entrances here in a bit. 10 But I think it's important to note that in 11 addition to the outpatient medical facility 12 which has been here for a number of years, 13 this is all going to be redesigned and 14 reassigned. We have outpatient medical 15 offices. We have got a heart center. 16 In addition to that there is the 17 whole new wing in this area over here which 18 is a full regional medical center and 19 hospital inpatient facilities. Full 20 emergency department. The campus will 21 continue to be developed as a health care 22 facility, a health care campus, if you will. 23 Two medical office buildings back here in 24 the far corner, in the southwest corner.
103 1 A Stay Bridge Inn Hotel for patient 2 and visitor use that is pretty paramount and 3 very much a part of the whole in-patient 4 medical facility. So, this is a multi-use 5 facility. These large green areas here will 6 be developed primarily as this might be 7 commercial and retail environment. This 8 will be more medical here. 9 There may be some medical out here. This is 10 a very comprehensive medical campus. 11 Again, 200 acres, five key entrances.
12 There has been a lot of thought into how we 13 control traffic. Unfortunately in a lot of 14 medical centers, we walk in at the last 15 minute. The facility is already there, now 16 we got to try to figure out how to get 17 people around it. 18 We have had the luxury I guess in this 19 case of being able to work on how we control 20 those folks, how do we get people into the 21 right entrance and what we do with them once 22 we get them off the main highways. So there 23 are five main entrances. 24 You will notice, we have marked up
104 1 some designations here. This is the primary 2 entrance identifier. We'll talk a little 3 bit more about that in a moment. 4 There are two primary entrances 5 that we want to use to get folks off the 6 main road. In this case, back to the 7 north-south corridor and the east-west 8 corridor Grand River to get folks into what 9 we call this ring road. Once we get you off 10 the highway and get you into this ring road, 11 we probably get you just about anywhere with 12 that. Our primary goal is to get you off 13 the highway because as you know, I have not 14 been able to find any recent traffic counts, 15 but my best guess is that there's an access 16 of 10,000 cars a day down Grand River. 17 There is a huge number of cars. We want to 18 get folks off of that corridor if at all 19 possible. 20 With the new interchange that is off 21 the map up in here, it really has been 22 helpful in moving large volumes of traffic, 23 but there are large volumes of traffic. The 24 key entrances to this facility off of Grand
105 1 River is right here. This is what we call 2 our primary entrance off of Grand River. 3 This is the primary entrance off 4 of Beck Road. That will allow access 5 directly into the hospital. Patient drop 6 off, patient parking. If emergency folks 7 come in here, and we prefer that they did, 8 we can get them over into here into this 9 section of the facility. This is a whole 10 separate entrance. 11 You will notice that there are 12 several entrances off of the ring road and 13 this goes into the Heart Center and this 14 comes into part of the other medical office 15 area, inpatient area, lab testing, 16 outpatient services, if you will, in here, 17 in this area. Round in back here there is 18 the cancer center, the existing cancer 19 center, so traffic is coming in off of that. 20 This entrance off of Grand River is the 21 primary entrance. 22 This is an entrance to what we call 23 the Village Center. This is the entrance 24 where we want to get people into for these
106 1 medical office buildings back here. The 2 Stay Bridge Suites, whatever other 3 development happens in these areas. So, 4 what our goal is here is to get folks into 5 the right entrance so that we can get them 6 off of the main drag, if you will, get them 7 into the ring road and then direct them from 8 there. We're not talking about those 9 secondary directional signs here this 10 evening. The City has assured us that those 11 are not the issue. The issue is the signs 12 on the main road and how do we go about 13 doing that. 14 So, one of the things that we have 15 done, we struggled with this sign here 16 because this is our key identifier. This is 17 the identifier to the site. You are coming 18 in off of the expressway or coming from 19 Grand River, this is the intersection you 20 are going to come to first. That's the key 21 to identifying the site. So we need some 22 long range identifiers to at least say that 23 this is the Providence Healthcare Campus if 24 you will. And after that, then we can get
107 1 you to one of the entrances either right or 2 left. 3 I am going to go through this series 4 of photo studies that we have done to help 5 you understand how we see this flow working 6 and how these signs look in the environment. 7 We have taken great care to make sure that 8 these were to scale. So every sign that you 9 see depicted here is in its proper scale. 10 And I will show you a little bit about how 11 we have done that. 12 I am going to start coming off of the 13 expressway coming south on Beck Road. 14 Proceed down Beck Road, double back on Beck 15 Road. Start over here and go west on Grand 16 River, double back and come east on Grand 17 River, so you understand the methodology 18 here a little bit. 19 This is the first view, and I don't 20 know how well you can see it there. The 21 sign is actually right here. One of the 22 challenges has been, and, again, you'll see 23 when we get a little closer shot. This is 24 about 600 feet away. You can't read
108 1 anything on the sign. 2 At very best you can see a footprint 3 and that's what we had hoped to see. That's 4 one of the reasons we used the color blue. 5 We feel it's a color that doesn't compete 6 with the business of the telephone poles and 7 the light control fixtures and the 8 landscaping and all the other signage and 9 issues around there. 10 This is slightly closer about another 11 50 feet closer. Now at this spot, we are 12 probably about 400 feet away and you can 13 start to read the very top of the sign which 14 says Providence Park, St. John Providence 15 Park. That's our long range identifier. 16 All we're interested at this point is 17 letting people know that this property and 18 this facility is on this corner because we 19 have got to be able to get you into one of 20 these two lanes ideally because ideally we 21 would like to bypass Grand River, because 22 that's where most of the traffic is and get 23 you into the Beck Road entrance. That's 24 what we consider our main entrance into the
109 1 hospital facility. 2 You notice we are not trying to give a 3 lot of information here. We tried to limit 4 our message units and keep it succinct. We 5 are going to get you in one entrance to the 6 other entrance. We are not giving any 7 direction other than to emergency from this 8 location or from any perimeter road for that 9 matter. 10 Now, this is where the sign starts to 11 become a little bit effective and you can 12 actually see some directional information. 13 You can see the Providence Park. You know 14 you have arrived. We got the right corner. 15 Hopefully we've got you in the right lane. 16 If you are not in the right lane we can 17 probably deal with that too. We just don't 18 want you in that far left-hand lane, 19 otherwise you are going to have to double 20 back on Grand River. 21 So our function with this sign, and 22 you can see the competing problems we are 23 having here. This little box right here, 24 this electrical box which the highway
110 1 department says there may be another one 2 here real soon depending on what happens in 3 the intersection. There are some thoughts 4 about improving this intersection even more 5 than there is which may add all kinds of 6 other things. 7 But they are talking about 8 another box. That's a 5 foot 6 inch box, 9 66 inches high. So it gives you some idea 10 of scale. One of the things that we used 11 for scale, this portion of the sign is 12 14 feet 10 inches right to here. The bottom 13 of this cross arm is 15 feet. So that's one 14 of the ways we scaled this so we know this 15 is the proper proportion. 16 This is a project where you all have 17 allowed us not to put up mock-ups because 18 everybody felt that anything this large was 19 pretty dangerous to be put up in a temporary 20 fashion and probably didn't make a lot of 21 sense. So, we are very sensitive to giving 22 you proper scale here. 23 This sits back from the corner 24 considerably. As you can see the basic
111 1 information is the Beck Road entrance and 2 the Grand River entrance and emergency. So, 3 we have limited the amount of information on 4 this sign. We have tried to get that 5 information which is the important in terms 6 of direction at eye level. 7 So the baseline of this text is around 8 the seven feet mark which is a good viewing 9 distance. One of the things that we relied 10 on when we designed this whole package of 11 signs is a study that was done by the 12 Pennsylvania Transportation Institute in 13 cooperation with the University of 14 Pennsylvania. They have done the most 15 current visibility site studies of safety 16 issue studies regarding signage and how it's 17 affected by traffic and speeds of traffic 18 and viewing distances. 19 So, for instance when we get into spec 20 drawings, and you may have looked at it in 21 your packets, the text, this text right here 22 that calls out the entrance identification, 23 that's six and a half inches high. The 24 Transportation Institute says that you
112 1 really need 7-inch high copy in order for it 2 to be visible in the 200 to 240 foot range. 3 And that's at speeds of 30 to 35 miles an 4 hour. This is a 40 mile an hour road, Grand 5 River is at this point. 6 We think that probably traffic coming 7 down off that hill is not going 40, it's 8 probably going 30, 35, we would hope. If 9 it's going 40 it's flying. If it's going 40 10 we don't have large enough sign probably, 11 but that's not the issue. We think that 12 this is going to work in this location to 13 give us long range identification of the 14 park and then secondary information in terms 15 of directional. 16 Now, if we proceed past that 17 sign, and we're going down Beck Road, now 18 just to give you an idea of the distances, I 19 can go back to the site plan if you would 20 like me to, and please do, if you like. It's 21 1,100 feet between that corner and the very 22 first entrance which is a staff only 23 entrance. This is where we want to get the 24 thousand plus workers that work in this
113 1 facility on a daily basis into the campus. 2 We want to keep them off the main 3 entrances. Keep that traffic, especially a 4 shift change and things like that we don't 5 want that traffic there. Let's get them in 6 preliminary to that. So, this is a staff 7 only entrance. Our proposal here is for a 8 little 6 foot sign. It's actually 5 foot 6 9 inches. Not even 6 feet tall. It says 10 staff only. We minimized it. We don't even 11 put the name of the facility on it. We feel 12 that the employees are going to be educated 13 about that. There will be employee 14 information that designate what entrance 15 they should be in. So we are trying to 16 discourage patient and visitor traffic in 17 here. 18 You can start to see this sign now, 19 again, you are a still a couple hundred feet 20 away or so. You really can't read the text 21 on it, that's fine. We are going to be able 22 to read the text when you get close and the 23 staff will recognize it as such. We really 24 don't want it recognizable as a sign to the
114 1 general public. 2 There is 1,100 feet between the 3 corner -- I'm sorry 1,200 feet between the 4 corner -- I apologize I was right the first 5 time. 1,100 feet between that corner and 6 the entrance. And there is an additional 7 600 feet to the next entrance which is our 8 main entrance. And this is where we start to 9 see, we just passed the sign now for the 10 staff entrance. We're about 500 feet away 11 from this sign. This sign is 14 feet 12 10 inches, again, it has six and a half feet 13 high copy on it for the text, a little 14 larger than that for Providence Park. And 15 this will identify Providence Park. In fact, 16 a copy for Providence Park is about 8, 8 and 17 a half inches high. 18 Emergency is the big thing here, 19 obviously this is our main entrance for 20 emergency. We are trying to get most of the 21 traffic here. This is the shortage distance 22 to emergency. 23 Here, again, we are still about 24 150 feet away from the sign. It comes into
115 1 view, it is within the setback. In fact, 2 it's 10 feet back from the power lines which 3 we need to maintain for the power line 4 easements. 5 So, it's not a huge sign in terms 6 of scale. This is pretty representative of 7 main I.D. signs at other health care 8 campuses. 9 The Beaumont Hospital signs in 10 Royal Oak on 13 Mile are 16 feet tall just 11 to give you an idea of comparison. And that 12 is a 35 mile an hour road that's pretty much 13 in the city. This is a 200-acre piece of 14 land that's still somewhat in the country. 15 Now, if we go back and come back 16 the other way, now we turn around, we're 17 going north on Beck Road. This is that same 18 entrance sign, our primary entrance sign on 19 Beck Road. One of the ways we scaled these 20 signs, just so you know, we actually had 21 somebody stand out there with an 22 architectural pole that we use in surveying 23 to do site lines at the 14 foot, 10 foot 24 mark. We removed that person obviously when
116 1 we put the sign into scale. But that's how 2 we determine scale. We were, again, very 3 careful that what you are seeing tonight is 4 an actual rendition of what that sign is 5 going to look like in the environment. 6 As you get a little closer to it it 7 starts to come into view. Now we're past 8 it. Now we see the little bitty sign up 9 there which is the staff entrance sign. So 10 we're back again approaching the 11 intersection of Grand River and Beck. 12 Now, we turn completely around. 13 We're on the east, we're looking west on 14 Grand River. And you can start to see that 15 sign again as a landmark because that's what 16 we want to see. We want to see that big
17 blue image up here to get people the idea 18 that, gosh, that's where they probably, or 19 at least draw their eye. They're probably 20 not going to even know what this is if 21 they're a first time visitor. Remember, 22 this is a new regional medical facility. 23 There are a lot of folks coming in from out 24 of the area. A lot of hospital patients
117 1 that had previously gone to Southfield will 2 be coming out here. 3 This will also serve as a new base, a 4 new demographics for St. John Providence in 5 this area. It's obviously needed. We are 6 anticipating in access of 3,000 visits per 7 day to this campus. And we have got 8 15 years of history with this facility so 9 it's well within the range, maybe more. And 10 that's not counting our employee traffic. 11 So, as we approach this a little 12 closer, now we're about 300 feet away, 13 300 feet plus. 14 Again, you can start to read Providence 15 Park. You really can't read the messages, 16 but at least you know you are supposed to 17 get into the left-hand side or the middle 18 turn lane as opposed to the far right turn 19 lane. 20 This is actually taken from about the 21 turn lane, so I am really standing right out 22 in the middle. I am a good 150 feet from 23 that sign because it's almost 100 feet to 24 the corner and then 50 beyond that. It's a
118 1 very wide intersection. So you can see based 2 on the scale? 3 Yes? 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Normally we 5 allow 10 minutes for a presentation. I am 6 allowing more than that for this because of 7 the size of the campus and because you are 8 asking for five different signs, but you 9 need to speed it up just a little bit, 10 please. 11 MR. LUTZ: We'll do. I appreciate your 12 consideration, Mr. Chairman. 13 As we proceed further past that 14 intersection now we're starting to pick up 15 the Grand River entrance. This is the 16 primary entrance off of Grand River. You are 17 starting to see it, you are still several 18 hundred feet away. Actually let me go back 19 to it. We are still several hundred feet 20 away because you see the stoplight down 21 there and people coming out. Now, we're 22 past it. Whoops, I'm sorry I went back. Now 23 we're past it. Now we're into the Village 24 Center. And this is the far western
119 1 entrance, if you will, to the campus. It 2 identifies it as the park. But also 3 mentions that it's the Village Center. It 4 does not have any emergency information, it 5 doesn't have any health care information. 6 It's primarily information for the tenants. 7 The lavender panel you see there is 8 the Stay Bridge panel for that business that 9 is already there and the rest will be for 10 the medical center and some small tenant 11 panels that may be required for national 12 tenants that may be in this facility. 13 This is the same sign looking the 14 other way, we are now looking back east. 15 This is at the beginning of the curb cut so 16 we're several hundred feet away from there 17 too. You can start to see the image. 18 Again, this sign is the same as the others 19 as the 14 feet 10 inches. 20 We are still eastbound. We are coming 21 up upon the primary entrance I.D. There is 22 a sign there right now by the way that's a 23 temporary sign that's been there for a long 24 period of time. That's in that same
120 1 position so the setback is what it is. 2 I think you have all these in your 3 packet. These are all the spec drawings. I 4 don't think that -- we can certainly go 5 through them if you like. Questions? We 6 tried to be very considerate. We know these 7 signs are large. We don't know how to make 8 that big sign any smaller given the viewing, 9 the mess that's out there on that corner. 10 We have got all kinds of traffic lights, all 11 kinds of busyness. It was a real challenge. 12 We have worked on this for about a year with 13 the architectural firm that helped design 14 the complex in trying to come up with 15 something that would work. And there have 16 been many ideas that have been shot down 17 just because they haven't worked. It's been 18 a challenge for us too. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 20 Once, again, I would ask that the audience, 21 in particular out in the foyer area, the 22 lobby area, tone down the sound a little 23 bit. It's difficult to hear in here. Thank 24 you.
121 1 And you were through, Mr. Lutz? 2 You are were through with your presentation, 3 correct? 4 MR. LUTZ: I'm open for questions, 5 ladies and gentlemen. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: This is a public 7 hearing so at this time I will open it up to 8 the audience if anybody cares to speak on 9 this case please come forward. 10 Seeing none, I'll close the public 11 hearing and ask our Vice-Chair to respond to 12 any correspondence we have received. 13 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 14 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 54 15 notices mailed with one approval and zero 16 objections. 17 The one approval is from Re/Max 100 at 18 26870 Beck Road, Novi, Michigan with 19 comment: We absolutely do not object. 20 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 22 Comments from the City or Counsel? 23 MR. FOX: No comment, sir. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, I'll turn
122 1 it over to the Board for discussion. 2 Member Wrobel? 3 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 4 As an all too frequent visitor of the campus 5 even now and a member of the Planning 6 Commission, I know where the roads are 7 there, but it's still very difficult to see. 8 And I totally understand the need for these 9 signs. Aesthetically they look great. 10 Comment on the emergency panel on each sign 11 were applicable, I'm thinking like a person 12 whose not an ambulance driver or something 13 who is going there maybe at the first or 14 second time and they are in a panic mode 15 obviously if they are going to the emergency 16 room. I am wondering if you guys considered 17 increasing the size of the emergency, the 18 red sign on each sign so it hits you in the 19 face more. Because you know how people are 20 when they're in a panic mode, they are 21 confused. 22 Another question that I had, and I 23 think you may have answered it is in the 24 Village Center sign where we have Stay
123 1 Bridge on there now. Did I hear you say 2 that other tenants potentially would be on 3 that sign also? 4 MR. LUTZ: There are going to be a 5 number of freestanding buildings here. Each 6 one of those freestanding buildings is going 7 to need some kind of identification probably 8 at the road. 9 We tried to minimize it. We have some 10 small panels that are 15 inches by 4 feet 11 long. We have allowed space for four 12 additional tenants not counting the two 13 medical centers which we know will be there. 14 We just haven't named them yet. So, really 15 there is very limited space. It will only 16 be for major tenants. It will not be a 17 hodgepodge because quite frankly they don't 18 work. You can't read them. 19 But there are major tenants that need 20 to have their logos identified, and so we 21 need to allow some space for that. 22 MR. WROBEL: That was one my concerns. 23 If you put too many on there, and I don't 24 want you coming back saying, well, gosh, we
124 1 need a second sign now because these tenants 2 want to have signage there too. That was one 3 concern. 4 MR. LUTZ: In regards to the 5 emergency, we would love to have that as 6 large as possible. We intend for that 7 entire red band to illuminate to be helpful. 8 The text is nine and a half inches high. 9 It's bold. It's upper case. Short of 10 making the sign wider and a little bit 11 taller because things grow proportionately 12 in both directions we're sensitive to that 13 issue. 14 But there is a point where how big do 15 you make it? 16 MEMBER WROBEL: Other than that I 17 fully support their request being very 18 familiar with this project it does need 19 signage. It's have very large parcel of land 20 and it's quite intricate traffic pattern in 21 there and I think this will help people, 22 especially for second time users to find 23 where they're going more effectively. Thank 24 you.
125 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 2 Member Wrobel. 3 Member Canup? 4 MEMBER CANUP: I guess we have a vast 5 difference of opinion on this signage. I 6 think a 30-foot tall sign or a 25-foot tall 7 rather, 300 inches, we don't have a sign in 8 this city that that's big. And I think that 9 anybody that gets on that corner and doesn't 10 recognize where they're at, they belong in 11 your hospital not looking for it. 12 You are very focal on that corner. 13 There is no question about where you are at 14 and what's there. I do agree wholeheartedly 15 that there needs to be some direction for 16 emergency. I think the portion of the sign 17 that appears to be gray colored, the smaller 18 portion of this. It looks like it's about 19 14 feet tall, I think in my opinion on that 20 corner is what is needed. And the rest of 21 it, the big blue sign with St. John on it in 22 my opinion serves no real purpose other than 23 identifying St. John. It doesn't have 24 direction. It really serves no purpose.
126 1 As for the other signs, I think what 2 we should do as a Board is deal with each 3 sign individually one at a time and vote on 4 them one at a time and discuss them one at a 5 time. So, anyway, that's my opinion on 6 that. That would be number one sign for me 7 would be the one on the corner. 8 I drive by this site every day. I 9 would shutter to think that I got to look at 10 that obnoxiously big sign daily. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 12 Member Canup. 13 Does the Board agree that we should, 14 or would that be the Board's preference to 15 do one sign at a time? It appears so. 16 Do we want to do sign number one 17 first? Member Canup already discussed it. 18 (Unintelligible). 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. Let's do 20 the main sign, main entrance corner of Grand 21 River and Beck is the first sign. 22 Discussion on that? 23 Member Fischer? 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I viewed
127 1 this sign and I would tend to agree with Mr. 2 Canup on the size of it. I do believe it is 3 too large for that intersection. I think it 4 would be much larger than any other sign 5 that we had in Novi. Not to mention that if 6 dwarfs the stoplights. It's even higher 7 than that and I take a little particular 8 issue with that. 9 I don't have an issue with the smaller 10 piece where it shows the emergency, the Beck 11 Road entrance, the Grand River entrance I 12 think that's well done. I think that's the 13 correct size. But I think there is a lot of 14 blue space to that St. John Providence Park 15 sign that it could be taken down. 16 If that Providence Park St. John 17 icon was resting on top we would look right 18 there at about saving five, six, seven, 19 eight feet. So, that would be my particular 20 opinion is to take some of the blue space 21 out of the, not the directional piece, but 22 the commercial piece, if you will. 23 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
128 1 Member Sanghvi? 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. I am 3 sure you will agree that there is no problem 4 about a business identification when it 5 comes to Providence Hospital sitting there 6 on that corner. Everybody will know where 7 Providence Hospital is if you say it's on 8 the corner of Beck and Grand River. That 9 identification sign is the main sign, I 10 think it's humongous. It's 900 percent 11 bigger than normally allowed by the 12 Ordinance. Nine hundred percent bigger. 13 And when we discuss other signs and we 14 will be discussing more signs, I think we 15 need to be judicious about allowing all the 16 sizes of the signs to everybody. I think we 17 should be the same kind of standard for all 18 the people who want signs in the City and 19 that's way, way too big. I don't know how 20 smaller you can make it, what you can put on 21 it, it's not my job to tell you to be honest 22 what you should put and you shouldn't put on 23 the sign. But it's way too big. Thank you. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you,
129 1 Member Sanghvi. 2 Member Bauer, did you have a comment? 3 MEMBER BAUER: Yes, I agree with both 4 people on that. It's got to come down. The 5 ones that he has on sign two, three and five 6 I think that's about as maximum that you 7 would want to get. Not 25 feet. Normally 8 if a person is coming for an emergency they 9 are coming in an ambulance. Not all the 10 time, but sometimes. With the red and the 11 white emergency it stands out. You can't 12 miss it. 13 And anybody coming to the doctors I'm 14 sure that they would be given maps. I know 15 St. John in Ann Arbor has that. And they 16 give maps to every patient they have. 17 So, that's my remarks. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 19 Member Bauer. 20 I'll place my comments regarding 21 the sign. The first question, I do want to 22 go back to Mr. Amolsch. Looking at the side 23 view it appears that there is two signs, two 24 separate signs. And I believe from what I
130 1 have heard that we're okay with being 2 considered as one sign and going forth with 3 that, et cetera? 4 MR. AMOLSCH: The legal advertisement 5 was written up as more than one sign for 6 parcel of land. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I'm sorry? 8 MR. AMOLSCH: I said the legal notice 9 indicates that one of the variances for a 10 number of signs permitted. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Great. Thank 12 you. I wanted to get that on the record 13 because it's two freestanding signs. I want 14 to make sure that we dot all the I's and 15 cross all the T's. I agree with my cohorts 16 on the Board here. Too much blue. I totally 17 agree with the gray, I think that looks 18 great, the emergency. In fact, I would have 19 no objection to the lettering being larger 20 on the gray portion. 21 The St. John's part easily can be 22 lowered. And a lot of the blue taken out. 23 It's just, when I saw the renderings and saw 24 that it was above the light poles, I was
131 1 just astonished. And looking at your 2 pictures and things, it hasn't changed my 3 mind. It still appears to be an overkill. 4 That's my opinion. 5 Would you care to make a comment 6 before we move forward? 7 MR. LUTZ: I would. And if we could 8 dim the lights again I would like to go back 9 to our one photograph that shows probably 10 the issues that you are talking about. You 11 see the light pole or the traffic control 12 signal arms, if you will, that intersect and 13 busy up that entire site? If I drop that 14 down, which is what you're suggesting, it's 15 then obscured by those light poles. This is 16 such a difficult intersection with all the 17 busyness that is there. I mean count the 18 poles and count the light fixtures and count 19 the traffic signals and the other competing 20 signs, it's a very difficult sign to place. 21 In fact, that's the only place we could find 22 to place it that it would be visible at all. 23 If they come back with another 24 five foot six high electrical high box in
132 1 front of that sign, we are going to hide
2 part of the gray sign. So, we had started 3 out with a ground sign here, putting it on a 4 berm. With all the visibility studies we did 5 we could not see it. 6 As soon as a car pulled in front or a 7 truck or heaven forbid a van, now you're 8 visually obscured from all the text and all 9 the messages. So our only answer was to get 10 it up high. We didn't know how else to do 11 it, Mr. Bauer. And I understand your 12 concern and I was very sensitive. I said a 13 long time ago this is going to be difficult 14 because it is a problematic corner and it's 15 not a corner that's got a self-created 16 hardship. It's a circumstantial hardship in 17 that sense. 18 I just don't know, yes, we can make it 19 a little skinnier, we could take out a few 20 square foot of blue, but as soon as we start 21 dropping that logo down, 22 you say that everybody knows that's a 23 hospital, I would dispute that. There are an 24 awful lot of visitors that don't have a
133 1 planned visits to hospitals and don't have a 2 chance to get maps, don't have a chance to 3 go on line, don't have a chance to look for 4 maps. They just want to get grandmother to 5 the emergency room. And I have spoken with 6 numerous people. 7 I have spoken to this group many times 8 before. Our specialty is health care, our 9 special specialty is campuses and the health 10 care environment and it's very different 11 than the commercial environment where you 12 have commercial situations. 13 I have no problems with most 14 commercial sign Ordinances. This is a 15 campus. Nobody has effectively written an 16 Ordinance for a campus. Nobody can possibly 17 write an Ordinance, I don't believe for a 18 health care campus or any other campus for 19 that matter. Multiple buildings, multiple 20 entrances, multiple types of traffic, 21 vehicular, pedestrian and so forth, I think 22 we need to make a statement on this corner. 23 And, yes, maybe it could be downsized 24 a little bit, but I don't think we are
134 1 talking a substantially smaller sign here. 2 We have got a 10-foot high sign out there 3 right now, and you cannot find it. And 4 people say, gosh, they're lost. 5 Customer surveys have time and time 6 again said this is a problem. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Excuse me. 8 MR. LUTZ: Unsolicited. I don't 9 know -- 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's fine. 11 MR. LUTZ: No, seriously. This has 12 been an issue for health care campuses from 13 day one. And this is a particular problem. 14 This corner is a particular problem. 15 I think I am hearing from the Board 16 that the entrance identification signs are 17 appropriate, and I agree, again, go back to 18 the transportation study done by the 19 University of Pennsylvania. They confirm 20 the sizes. Which is the exact size of the 21 small sign that sits in front of the blue 22 sign. So, we have no issue with that. 23 That's appropriately sized for the text 24 that's on it and the message units are
135 1 appropriately sized for visibility within 2 the viewing distances based on the traffic 3 speeds at the time. 4 But the identification of this, you 5 got to remember this facility sits several 6 thousand feet back. It's out of site. You 7 cannot see it on this photograph. And if we 8 back off into the next photograph. I think 9 I'm going to right direction here. Let's 10 show these. You see the trees that have 11 just been planted there? You will not be 12 able to see this building here very shortly 13 when those trees start to grow. 14 Now, I'm sure that this was a City 15 required planting design. It's part of the 16 aesthetics of the campus and I don't 17 question that. But that obscures view of 18 the building itself. Anybody coming to this 19 corner would not know that that is a 20 hospital campus. It doesn't say hospital on 21 it, it's just a big building. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you for 23 your comments. 24 Open it back up to the Board for
136 1 further discussion. Member Canup? 2 MEMBER. CANUP: I guess I'm looking at 3 the sign, the blue in my opinion if you went 4 with the bronze look of a sign whatever that 5 is, gray color and we allowed that, that 6 sits below, at least on the scale that we 7 saw there in the pictures, that sits below 8 the lights, the poles that hold the light 9 ups. And I think the idea is here, I don't 10 care what the comments are about you can't 11 see that building, you got to be really in 12 bad shape not to see that building. And I 13 don't think the growing of the trees is 14 going to make a difference in five years or 15 ten years from now. If they do, cut them 16 down and replace them with smaller ones. 17 If we -- my intention would be to 18 allow basically the 96-inch wide, and it 19 looks like about 178 tall which is 14 feet, 20 and allow that portion of the sign and allow 21 them to put on it whatever they want in 22 script and work within those confines, I 23 think that blue sign is just absolutely 24 obnoxiously big for as close to the road as
137 1 it is. 2 If it sit back 50 or 100 feet 3 from the road it might be a different look 4 at it. But sitting that close to road I 5 think it absolutely is out of the question. 6 I would be willing to make a Motion to 7 that effect. I would make a Motion -- 8 MR. SCHULTZ: Mr. Chair, just 9 procedurally, I know we have got five signs 10 and I know the Petitioner has at least their 11 representative here. The Board is going to 12 have a couple of different procedural 13 options. One is going to be to just make 14 Motions with lesser variances which I think 15 it sounds like what Mr. Canup is prepared to 16 do. 17 The other thing, the other 18 alternative, and that would result in 19 decisions on all five signs and the 20 Petitioner would have their decision. The 21 other alternative is to go through the 22 comments on each of the signs and see if 23 the Petitioner wants the opportunity to come 24 back with a different size sign having taken
138 1 all of the comments on each of the signs 2 into consideration. 3 I don't know whether that is a 4 question you want to ask the Petitioner or 5 purely a Board decision. You have got a 6 couple of different ways you can jump on 7 this one tonight. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That is my 9 preference. So I am going to make the 10 decision that we are going to talk about all 11 five signs and then we'll entertain a Motion 12 afterwards.
13 MEMBER CANUP: Are we going to vote on 14 all five of them in one package? 15 MR. SCHULTZ: No, no. I think it's 16 entirely appropriate, if I may through the 17 Chair, to vote on each one separately. I 18 just wonder if at the end of the 19 presentation on all five signs or the 20 Board's comments, the Petitioner might want 21 an opportunity to take those comments into 22 consideration and come back. 23 If you make Motions he is sort of 24 stuck with those Motions.
139 1 MEMBER CANUP: I wouldn't have a 2 problem with that as long as they come back 3 with less than what I was intending to make 4 a Motion on. 5 MR. SCHULTZ: Purely a procedural 6 point, not a substantiative comment on the 7 signs. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And that's how 9 we'll handle it. We'll talk about each sign 10 individually and then we'll talk with the 11 Petitioner. After hearing all of our 12 comments we'll give you the option as to 13 whether or not you want us to proceed with 14 Motions that could result in denial or could 15 result in lesser signage or size wise, et 16 cetera. Or whether or not you want it to be 17 tabled and come back at a later date. Do 18 you understand? 19 MR. LUTZ: That's fair. I understand. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Let's go on to 21 sign number two. Do we have a second person 22 that wants to -- 23 MR. ABBOTT: If I could -- 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You'll need to
140 1 be sworn in, sir. 2 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear 3 that all your answers will be honest on 4 07-061? 5 MR. ABBOTT: I do. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: State your name. 7 MR. ABBOTT: I'm Richard Abbott with 8 Providence Hospital, 47601 Grand River. 9 Thanks for hearing our appeal 10 this evening. Listening to your discussion 11 sounds a lot like our discussions we've had 12 about the signage. Because we have a 13 building that we want to be kind of subtle 14 and not look like it's just this big 15 building sitting there, but kind of blended 16 in and we thought, well, our signage maybe 17 should do the same thing. 18 Then when we started talking about it, 19 you know, people need to find their way. 20 And if the signage is too subtle and it 21 doesn't stand out and the blue color helps 22 to stand out, so we said it needs to be 23 obvious. 24 It's too subtle, it just won't work for us.
141 1 And that's why the blue color is 2 significant. 3 I think the size of the sign at Grand 4 River surprised us also. We thought, you 5 know, this would be on a smaller scale, 6 maybe a ground sign would work. But when the 7 studies were done of the southbound traffic 8 because of the conflicts on that at that 9 intersection, it was obvious that a ground 10 sign won't work. That unless that sign gets 11 tall enough, it's just not obvious that 12 we're there. 13 I know the building to us is very 14 obvious, but to people in an anxious state 15 with an emergency, I don't think that's as 16 obvious to them because they are just 17 looking for something that shows them the 18 way. That's what we're trying to do is show 19 them the way. 20 The way to the emergency department to get 21 the care they need. 22 We talked earlier, I heard your 23 discussion earlier this evening about safety 24 and the safety of I think it was a hedge
142 1 that was causing a problem. We think unless 2 this signage is this big and it's this 3 obvious, that it's a traffic problem. And 4 if people can't easily find their way and 5 make normal turning movements, that they 6 have to make unusual turning movements, they 7 have to make U-turns, they have to pull into 8 driveways and turn around, and that causes a 9 safety problem. 10 I agree, it seems like, could it be 11 really subtle? But we think because of the 12 extraordinary type of business we provide 13 that it can't be subtle. It has to be 14 obvious and it has to provide safe turning 15 movements into the property. And that's what 16 I think this signage does. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you for
18 your comments, sir. 19 All right. Moving on to sign number 20 two. Which is one which one? Let's see 21 here. Main entrance off Grand River Avenue, 22 correct? 23 Any discussion from the Board? 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Might we
143 1 get the lights dimmed a little bit and if we 2 could go back to that and put it on the 3 screen for us again, Mr. Chair. 4 MR. LUTZ: Which one would you like to 5 see, gentlemen? 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Main entrance 7 Grand River, sign number two. 8 MR. LUTZ: Entrance on Grand River? 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sure. 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: That looks 11 like Beck. 12 MR. LUTZ: I'm sorry, you said Grand 13 River. 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sign two. 15 MR. LUTZ: You're are on a different 16 side than I am. You want the Grand River 17 entrance. This is Grand River. 18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: East, west, 19 it doesn't matter. 20 MR. LUTZ: Now, this is eastbound on 21 Grand River. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I also 23 might mention that we have three signs that 24 are identical in size, so if you are looking
144 1 at size, you may want to make multiple 2 comments. Go ahead, Member Fischer. 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 4 sign currently out there, correct? 5 MR. LUTZ: Correct. 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: What's the 7 size of that sign? 8 MR. LUTZ: Ten feet high. 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Ten feet 10 high. Any comments as to why you feel this 11 campus will drive a larger sign than 12 currently resides there? 13 MR. LUTZ: Well, those signs have 14 never worked very well. We have repainted 15 those signs over the years. We have tried 16 to make them function. They are just so darn 17 small, and, of course, this road has been 18 expanded since then. It's been widened. We 19 had got all kinds of things that happened 20 over the years to this site that took it 21 from a kind of rural golf environment, if 22 you will, into what's really almost an urban 23 feel to this site. So, the viewing distance 24 is very different.
145 1 You have got a lot city planted 2 trees here. I don't know if you can really 3 see those. 4 I am actually closer and beyond some of them 5 already. As those trees grow they are going 6 to provide additional obstruction to the 7 visibility of these signs. 8 We have got much smaller size copy 9 than is recommended by the Transportation 10 Institute survey. We have got six and a 11 half inch copy to the Grand River entrance. 12 The emergency entrance information is a 13 little smaller on this sign than it is on 14 the one in the front at the corner that's in 15 question. So, you have got 8 and a half inch 16 copy, 8 and a half inch copy for the 17 Providence Park. 18 The sign size is a function of the 19 message units and the size of those message 20 units. And as you notice we only have two 21 message units on there. Emergency and Grand 22 River Avenue entrance. We have eliminated 23 everything else in the interest of trying to 24 maximize the visibility of that to get
146 1 people off the main road. Safety was an 2 overriding concern like Mr. Abbott has said. 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Now, as far 4 as the City is concerned they keep 5 referencing a study of sizes compared to 6 signs and traffic, et cetera. Is there 7 anything that we use or anything that we 8 consider legitimate, or have we heard of 9 this study, et cetera, that we can comment 10 on? 11 MR. AMOLSCH: Not to my knowledge. 12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Fox? 13 MR. FOX: Not that I know of. 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I don't 15 have particular issue with this sign. 16 Actually to correct the Petitioner I think 17 the speed limit is actually 50 on Grand 18 River. 19 MR. LUTZ: Grand River is 50. It's 40 20 on Beck. 21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON: I don't have 22 particular issues with this sign. Thank 23 you, Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Bauer?
147 1 MEMBER BAUER: I have no problem with 2 the sign two. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any other 4 comments on sign two? 5 Member Sanghvi? 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: I think the most 7 critical sign from the patient's point of 8 view is where the emergency room is located. 9 That's where people come in the middle of 10 the night in a hurry under stress, and all 11 kind of thing. And I agree, that is what 12 you need. That is the one you want big, 13 easily visible, flashing light if necessary 14 and tell them where to go. 15 That is the key because people are in 16 a lot of stress when they are bringing a 17 little child over with them who can't 18 breathe. They need to know where to go 19 right away. They don't want to waste any 20 time looking for a place. So, as far as I'm 21 concerned you can have as big a sign as you 22 like so long as you make your emergency room 23 identifiable easily. Thank you. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you,
148 1 Member Sanghvi. 2 Any other Board comments on sign two? 3 Member Canup? 4 MEMBER CANUP: If you look at the 5 signs that are depicted, there is one there 6 that looks like it's 14 feet tall. And if 7 you take off Providence Park on the top. 8 Your main concern is emergency, right? 9 There is a considerable amount of signage 10 that's taken up with the words Providence 11 Park everywhere you look. Their main 12 concern is to get people into the emergency. 13 Above everything else, that's what we're 14 looking for. It looks like we're more 15 worried about Providence Park than we are 16 about the emergency portion of it. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 18 Any other comments from the Board? I do not 19 have any issues with this sign. I do agree 20 somewhat with Member Canup that the 21 emergency is the most important thing to 22 flash or to show. I don't know that we need 23 that additional blue area as well under the 24 staff entrance, we would just have a blue
149
1 stripe above it to show that it's Providence 2 Park, but I'm not objecting to that sign as 3 it stands. So that's my comment only that. 4 Moving on to sign number three 5 which is the other one on Grand River, 6 that's the Village Center. 7 Member Fischer? 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Given that 9 I am the guy who has particular problems 10 with the tenants being listed. You 11 mentioned that it's going to have major 12 tenants each having -- is each one going to 13 have their on building? I guess my major 14 question overall is the amount of tenants 15 you can list on here, is that how many 16 buildings you can have? 17 MR. ABBOTT: No. What we did was we 18 said you know what, you got to limit it 19 somehow. We know we've got two medical 20 centers. 21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Move a 22 little closer to the mike for me. 23 MR. ABBOTT: I would say that's how 24 it's intended to be used is to identify
150 1 individual buildings. Examples that are 2 shown here are to identify the medical 3 buildings that are currently under 4 construction which will have a Grand River 5 address so we think it's important that the 6 address be on there also. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. So 8 you have two medical centers and then you'll 9 have four additional spaces maximum. 10 MR. ABBOTT: It's possible that those 11 four would be combined into two potentially. 12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Right, 13 right. So how many buildings would be back 14 there? 15 MR. ABBOTT: Well, we don't know. We 16 know that there are two medical buildings 17 and we know there's a hotel. We know 18 there's acreage for we anticipate another 19 medical office building in the future and 20 whatever commercial development occurs at 21 the corner which I think the signage there 22 is going to be more obvious from Grand 23 River. It won't need to be on this type of 24 monument sign.
151 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. Then 2 I don't see the amount of tenants listed on 3 there as an issue. Like I said, we could 4 make it a hundred feet tall and have as many 5 tenants as there are, but that doesn't seem 6 to be the case so I appreciate the 7 explanation. Thank you. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any other 9 comments on sign number three? Okay, I 10 believe you got the feedback on that one. 11 Moving on to sign number four which is 12 the staff entrance. Any comments on that? 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: The staff once they 14 keep coming will know where to go. So it is 15 for preventing other people driving into it, 16 that is the purpose of the stop sign. So 17 long as you have the primary thing covered, 18 that is the emergency, I think the rest of 19 the signs are secondary. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Moving on to 21 sign number -- 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Can we show 23 that up on the screen? I just want to take 24 a look at it. I just not sure that it does
152 1 need to be that tall. I understand it's 2 more so for the people who will be coming 3 from other areas so they know that's not the 4 correct entrance. Can you go a little 5 closer? I think you had another picture like 6 that. But I agree, if your staff doesn't 7 know where you're going, that's where I go, 8 but I don't know if I want to go there any 9 more. 10 MR. LUTZ: Well, you know, some of the 11 staff is coming from Southfield, they have 12 not been to this campus before. There is 13 going to be a lot of back and forth. 14 MR. FISCHER: But after one time I 15 think they would be -- after one meeting I 16 knew that the meetings were in this room, I 17 guess. And so did you. 18 MR. LUTZ: Just to comment on 19 that. The sign we thought well maybe we'll 20 have no sign there, but we were actually 21 trying to deter patients from going to that 22 entrance, so we're labeling it as a staff 23 entrance just to try and keep the patients 24 from getting in that entrance.
153 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Given the 2 surroundings, given the picture I don't take 3 particular issue. I just wanted to see the 4 picture again. 5 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 7 Member Sanghvi? 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Can I ask one 9 question? 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Certainly. 11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Is this staff 12 entrance going to be a gated entrance? 13 MR. LUTZ: No, in the case that 14 somebody does go in that entrance, we want 15 to get them into that ring road, so will 16 have a directional sign there just in case 17 somebody does wander in. We can't get them 18 lost. 19 That creates a real safety issue on a road 20 like Beck Road if it's gated they pull in, 21 now they got to go back out again. That's 22 the worse thing that we think we can do. 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: You can't go in
24 without a car if it is gated.
154 1 MR. LUTZ: No, I understand that. But 2 if you have already turned in the entrance, 3 now we have created a safety issue getting 4 them back out again. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. I just wanted 6 to know. Thank you. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sign number 8 five, the emergency entrance off of Beck 9 Road. Comments? Don't see any comments. 10 Everybody must be in agreement with that 11 sign. So it takes us back to the beginning. 12 MR. LUTZ: Mr. Chair, could I make 13 one -- I have some printouts of some of 14 these photographs that might be helpful 15 about this main sign. Everybody seems to 16 understand or think that they can see this 17 hospital from that corner. And I am going to 18 say to you that it's very difficult to see. 19 If I may, I have got a couple copies of 20 these. If I can pass these around. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. While 22 you're doing that Member Wrobel has a 23 comment. 24 (Unintelligible.)
155 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Hold on. 2 We can't have any comments. No one can hear 3 it. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We can't hear 5 it. We will pass it on. 6 Go ahead, Member Wrobel. 7 MEMBER WROBEL: Mr. Chair, this has to 8 deal not with any of the five signs, but in 9 the supplemental page where they have the 10 type C signs, the directional ring road 11 signs and I just want to make a comment to 12 the Applicant. 13 All these signs have the emergency 14 sign on it, and I noticed on here that 15 they're not illuminated. I am considering 16 at night when people are driving around that 17 ring road. This one, the type C, you might 18 want to consider illuminating those signs at 19 least from the emergency portion so people 20 once they get on ring road they will be able 21 to see where the emergency arrow is. That's 22 all, Mr. Chair. Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 24 They're the same pictures, right?
156 1 MR. LUTZ: Yes. Everything that's in 2 the presentation is in those binders. We're 3 not showing you anything you haven't seen 4 before. It just looks a little different on 5 paper. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Mr. Schultz, at 7 this time is it best to offer that option or 8 should we go into Motion prior to offering 9 the Applicant the option of having it tabled 10 and move forward? Because once we go into a 11 Motion we have to act on the Motion, don't 12 we? 13 MR. SCHULTZ: Once you make a Motion, 14 yes, you are going to end up with a result 15 and a decision. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's what I 17 thought. I wanted to make sure. 18 MR. SCHULTZ: I guess I would offer 19 the Petitioner, does he think he has 20 presented everything he needs? Does he feel 21 that he wants a decision of the Board or 22 does he want to take some information back 23 and come back at a different meeting? 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Or we could have
157 1 a Motion and vote on the three or four signs 2 that perhaps we agree with and table the 3 rest. 4 MR. SCHULTZ: You would have the 5 choice of voting on any particular sign that 6 you feel you could get a Motion that will 7 pass. If you aren't comfortable or don't 8 think you have enough information on a 9 particular sign, you can table that. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I'll open it 11 back up to the Board for discussion and/or a 12 Motion. 13 Member Fischer? Mr. Canup, he is 14 yielding the floor to you. 15 MEMBER CANUP: I think as Mr. Schultz 16 said, do we have enough information? That's 17 the key. Do we have enough information? I 18 think we have all the information that we 19 need on what has been presented. 20 If you would like to go back and maybe 21 regroup and rethink some of these signs, 22 that will be fine with me. But if not, I 23 have all the information I need at this 24 point on what was presented to make a
158 1 decision. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I'll go back to 3 the Applicant at this time. You have heard
4 all of our comments. We are ready to 5 entertain at least one Motion, perhaps more. 6 What is your feeling? 7 MR. LUTZ: Is it my understanding that 8 you will be making Motions on each sign on 9 an individual basis and deciding on that? 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It will be up to 11 the Board members as to how they make the 12 Motion. 13 MR. LUTZ: Well, there are separate 14 variances are they not? 15 MR. CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, we can make 16 five Motions, okay. We will do it that way. 17 MR. LUTZ: I think that would be our 18 preference and when we get to the main 19 identification sign, we may ask the Board 20 for an extension possibly. 21 MEMBER CANUP: Mr. Chairman, I can't 22 hear him. Would you close those doors? 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It looks like we 24 have enough people that have moved out of
159 1 the lobby area that perhaps we can close the 2 side doors and leave the center doors open. 3 Is there members from the City here that we 4 can have that done? Or can we do that? I 5 meant physically. Can somebody take care of 6 that for us? 7 MR. SCHULTZ: I can do that. 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You're very 9 expensive, Mr. Schultz. You cost too much 10 to close the doors. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, at this 12 point what I would like to do is entertain a 13 Motion on any or all of signs two through 14 five, and not entertain a Motion on sign one 15 at this time. 16 Member Fischer? 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Do we find 18 it not appropriate to lump two through five 19 together? 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Do you want all 21 of them separately? 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It's up to 23 you. I have no problem doing four different 24 ones, however.
160 1 MR. SCHULTZ: Through the Chair, I 2 think you ought to at least keep the like 3 signs together. So that would be the three 4 that are the same. The 89 square foot and 5 then sign number four I think should have 6 its own Motion. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I can do it 8 separately too, if you want. What would be 9 best for you? MR. SCHULTZ: 10 Your pleasure, however you would like to do 11 it. At least two Motions or four. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Do one Motion on 13 these three signs and a separate manner for 14 all these four. 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is that 16 what you would prefer? 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's fine. 18 Keep the like signs together. 19 Vice-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. I 20 would move that in case number: 07-061 filed 21 by Keith Murray of Sign Graphix, 22 Incorporated, for Providence Park Campus 23 located at 47601 that we approve the 24 Petitioner's request on signs numbers two,
161 1 sign number three and sign number five as 2 submitted and noticed due to the fact that 3 the Petitioner has established a practical 4 difficulty. The Petitioner has established 5 that the request is based on circumstances 6 or features that are exceptionally unique to 7 this property given the size of the 8 development as well as the amount of 9 buildings and tenants on the property and it 10 does not result from conditions that exist 11 generally in the city. 12 Number two, that the failure to grant 13 relief would result in substantially more 14 than a mere inconvenience due to the 15 inconvenience caused by traffic issues and 16 the inconvenience caused to citizens and 17 visitors to the property. 18 And number three, that the grant of 19 relief will not result in a use incompatible 20 with the surrounding areas and that this 21 variance request does substantial justice to 22 the Petitioner and the surrounding 23 properties. It is consistent with the spirit 24 and intent of the Ordinance and these will
162 1 result in a higher obtainability of public 2 safety and welfare. 3 The Petitioner has established all 4 those facts. 5 MEMBER BAUER: Second the Motion. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 7 by Member Fischer. A second by Member 8 Bauer. 9 Is there any further discussion? 10 Ms. Working, please call the roll. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 14 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 16 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Canup. 20 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 6-0 for 24 signs two, three, and five.
163 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 2 Member Fischer? 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Chair, 4 I would move that in case number: 07-061 5 filed by Keith Murray of Sign Graphix for 6 Providence Park located at 47601 Grand River 7 that we approve the Petitioner's request for 8 sign number four as submitted due to the 9 fact that the Petitioner has established 10 practical difficulty in that once, again, 11 the property and circumstances are not due 12 to general conditions that exist in the City 13 or that they were self created, but that the 14 size of the property warrants this. 15 Number two, that the Petitioner has 16 established that safety is enhanced by 17 having this sign as to not to confuse 18 patrons, visitors and citizens of this city 19 as to this entrance versus emergency, Grand 20 River or the Beck Road entrance. 21 And lastly, that the Petitioner 22 has established that substantial justice has 23 been done to this Applicant as well as 24 adjacent surrounding properties by granting
164 1 this variance. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is there a 3 second? 4 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 6 by Member Fischer, a second by Member Bauer. 7 Any further discussion? Please call 8 the roll. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 12 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 14 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 20 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 6-0 for 22 sign number four. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Now 24 at this time we'll come back to the
165 1 Applicant. You have heard all of our 2 comments concerning sign number one. What 3 is your desire at this point? 4 MR. LUTZ: We would respect, Mr. 5 Chair, that we table this until the next 6 meeting that we could then come back with 7 some kind of a possible compromise since I 8 haven't convinced enough of you. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Hearing that 10 from the Applicant is there a Motion? 11 Member Fischer? 12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Chair, 13 I move that in case number: 07-061 filed by 14 Providence at 47601 Grand River, we table 15 sign one at the request of the Petitioner to 16 take our comments under consideration and 17 possibly give us a new submission. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is there a 19 second? 20 MEMBER WROBEL: Second. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, we have a 22 Motion by Member Fischer. A second by 23 Member Wrobel. 24 Any further discussion? Please
166 1 call the roll. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 4 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 5 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 7 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 8 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 10 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 12 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 13 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 14 MS. WORKING: Motion to table passes 15 6-0. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. 17 Lutz. We look forward to seeing you next 18 month. 19 MR. LUTZ: Thank you. I appreciate 20 your time and your thoughtfulness. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 22 23 Next case, let me make sure I 24 have the right one here. Case number:
167 1 07-062 filed by Patrick Stieber of Allied 2 Signs for 43170 Grand River Avenue, Pei Wei 3 Asian Diner. 4 The Applicant is requesting two 5 sign variances for the diner to be located 6 at 43170 Grand River. The Applicant is 7 requesting an additional wall sign for the 8 south elevation measuring 21.93 square feet. 9 An additional wall sign for the west 10 elevation measuring 32.95 square feet. 11 The property is zoned TC and located 12 north of Grand River, east of Novi Road. 13 Under the City Ordinances Section 28-5(3)F, 14 the number of on-premises advertising sign 15 permitted states: Where two or more 16 separately owned and operated businesses 17 occupy a business -- a building on a single 18 parcel of land each having a separate 19 exterior entrance, each business is entitled 20 to a single identification wall sign if not 21 otherwise entitled to a wall sign under this 22 chapter. 23 The Applicant as I said is requesting 24 two additional wall signs for Pei Wei -- and
168 1 please excuse it if I am not pronouncing it 2 correctly -- Asian Diner. 3 The Applicant has come forward. If you 4 are not an attorney, please be sworn in by 5 our Secretary. 6 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 7 to tell the truth regarding case: 07-062? 8 MR. STIEBER: I do. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: State your name 11 and address. 12 MR. STIEBER: Yes. Good evening, my 13 name is Patrick Stieber from Allied Signs 14 here tonight representing Pei Wei Asian 15 Diner. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Pei Wei. 17 MR. STIEBER: Pei Wei, there you go. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 19 MR. STIEBER: As stated we are here 20 tonight asking for some additional wall 21 signage. Just to start out, where we're at 22 at this point. We have previously already 23 been approved for a single wall sign on the 24 north elevation.
169 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Can we dim the 2 lights, please. 3 MR. STIEBER: I don't know want I got 4 to switch to or something over here. 5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: He'll do it 6 in the back. 7 MR. STIEBER: Anyway, we submitted to 8 the Building Department a sign for the north 9 elevation facing the interior of the Town 10 Center Drive area there where the mall area 11 is. We submitted for them and been approved 12 for a 21.9 square foot wall sign. 13 In addition to that, we are asking for 14 additional signage on the south elevation 15 which faces Grand River, and also the west 16 elevation which faces the entrance area into 17 the mall and also Novi Road. 18 We feel that there is a definite lack 19 of identification due to the visibility on 20 Grand River along with the entrance into 21 this area off of Grand River due to the way 22 that this building is set up. It's a stand 23 alone type building with visibility from 24 three sides. We've scaled
170 1 down the sizes of these signs. As you can 2 see the size that we originally proposed on 3 the north elevation and we were approved for 4 was 21.9 square feet. We're asking for that 5 typical same size sign on the south 6 elevation, and a little bit larger sign on 7 the west elevation which includes their 8 corporate logo. 9 So, with that, due to the fact 10 that we do have this visibility from three 11 sides of the building, we feel that there is 12 a lack of identification, a hardship due to 13 this, we are asking for your feedback and 14 comments on what we have proposed tonight 15 and open to possibly coming to some sort of 16 agreement on something. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is that all? 18 MR. STIEBER: That's it. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. This 20 is a public hearing so if there is anyone in 21 the audience that cares to speak on this 22 case please come forward. 23 Seeing none, we will close the public 24 hearing and ask the Vice-Chair to comment or
171 1 read any of our correspondence. 2 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: In this 3 case we have 33 notices mailed with zero 4 approvals and two objections. 5 Kim's Garden at 26150 Novi Road states 6 an objection: That their establishment has 7 been in this location since 1979 and have 8 followed the City of Novi Code of Ordinance 9 regarding the number of signs permitted. I 10 have only had one sign for all these years 11 and was told other signs may cause traffic 12 problems/accidents by drivers taken their 13 eyes off road. If everyone else and all 14 these new restaurants have additional signs, 15 then the City should change its Code to 16 allow everyone the same opportunity. 17 That appears to be our only objection. 18 Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, thank you. 20 Do we have comments from the City or 21 Counsel? 22 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I will turn it 24 over to the Board for discussion.
172 1 Member Wrobel? 2 MEMBER WROBEL: I will start it off 3 again, Mr. Chair. 4 To our staff, any of the other 5 buildings that will be in Town Center on the 6 perimeter do they have multiple signs? I am 7 trying to think, I don't recall any of them 8 having more than one? 9 MR. AMOLSCH: The only ones that have 10 multiple signs are along the expressway that 11 have expressway frontage and permitted by 12 Ordinance to have them. I don't believe 13 offhand that are any other multiple signs 14 are on the perimeter. 15 MR. WROBEL: So like Rockey's and the 16 tire place and the car wash and Kim's Garden 17 and the bank do not and Boston Market? 18 MR. AMOLSCH: That is correct. 19 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you. That's all 20 I have. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 22 Member Wrobel. 23 Other comments? And welcome back, 24 Member Krieger, by the way.
173 1 Member Sanghvi? 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Did anybody see any 3 mock-up on this? 4 MEMBER BAUER: I saw one. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Because of rest of 6 them I didn't see either. And it's very 7 hard to visualize what this is going to look 8 like without any mockup signs. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: There was 10 mock-up signs there up until I believe 11 yesterday or the day before when they 12 started working on the roof or something 13 like that. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: I know, but there was 15 only one. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Well, there is 17 one on the south side and I saw one also on 18 the west side. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: I went this morning 20 so I didn't see any. So hopefully somebody 21 saw something. Thank you. I have no other 22 comments. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Canup? 24 MEMBER CANUP: The building itself
174 1 with its location and what have you, is a 2 very attention demanding building, if you 3 want to put it that way. I think that we 4 need to be very conservative in what we do 5 here with signage because it is so close to 6 the road, et cetera. I don't have a problem 7 with a sign facing the south and a sign 8 maybe facing the west on that corner. But I 9 think anything beyond that, and the signs 10 also in my opinion should be within the size 11 allowed by Ordinance. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 13 Member Fischer? 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is this 15 restaurant going to be the only one in 16 there? 17 MR. STIEBER: I don't have the answer 18 to that. As far as what the other tenant is 19 next door? 20 MEMBER FISCHER: There is another 21 tenant, though? 22 MR. STIEBER: Yes, yes. And keep in 23 mind too that the entrance is the north 24 elevation. The entrance into the Pei Wei.
175 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Correct. 2 Yeah, I have a real difficulty given that so 3 many businesses have dealt with only having 4 one sign in the past and going to three on
5 this building would be very difficult for 6 me. But I am still waiting from comments 7 from all my colleagues, so thank you, Mr. 8 Chair. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Other comments 10 from this side? I will make mine then. 11 One thing I want to be careful of, 12 obviously if we approve two additional signs 13 for you, the tenant next door is going to 14 want two additional signs and it's going to 15 snowball with all the new buildings and the 16 surrounding, not saying that they're not 17 needed, I am just saying that that will be 18 the wishes. So, that's one concern that I 19 have. 20 Also, I was a little concerned on the 21 safety side for eastbound Grand River 22 traffic looking across two or three lanes at 23 your western sign and that's the sign that 24 you wanted to have the corporate logo on as
176 1 well. 2 MR. STIEBER: Correct. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Nobody will be 4 able to read that corporate logo because of 5 the size. 6 MR. STIEBER: I hear you. But in 7 order to scale down and get the 8 identification on the three elevations 9 that's the size that they came up with this 10 custom size. And you are absolutely right, 11 it's not readable. 12 You can see obviously the logo 13 itself, it will stand out at you. But you 14 will never be able to read the tiny copy on 15 it. But that logo itself, the red sticks 16 out. It's what they want to get out there. 17 Again, they are willing to work with the 18 City on this. They really do feel that they 19 have to have more identification than the 20 signage that's already been approved on the 21 north elevation. They have to have the 22 signage over the entrance, that's a must for 23 them. 24 But due to the fact that the
177 1 south elevation faces the only main road 2 which is Grand River, it's really their only 3 other visibility point from a major road 4 because in the other road, this north 5 elevation it just faces the interior Town 6 Center Road. So, again, as you are saying, 7 the eastbound traffic on Grand River, that's 8 what they were thinking because as you turn 9 into the mall there left, they thought that 10 getting off of Novi Road and turning on to 11 Grand River and then turning into that 12 entrance there was going to kind of give 13 them a focal point for traffic flow. But 14 then, again, if they only ask for that sign, 15 then they have no visibility for westbound 16 traffic on Grand River. 17 So, they are kind of at a 18 standstill with, okay, what do we do here? 19 They feel like they need all three. We're 20 asking for a lot more than what you allow 21 here. They really feel the north is 22 absolutely needed. 23 And I guess if we had to compromise, we 24 would like to have the south elevation as
178 1 well because that way we would still get the 2 traffic flows going westbound as well. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And that's the 4 way I was leaning. The north side has 5 already been approved. Now, does that have 6 your corporate logo on it? 7 MR. STIEBER: No, it doesn't. Due to 8 the fact that we scaled the sign down in 9 size so much we had to eliminate it to try 10 to have a chance here tonight is how they 11 felt about it. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So the sign 13 on the west facade is a little bit larger 14 than the sign on the south facade because of 15 the logo? 16 MR. STIEBER: Yeah, just because of 17 the logo, yes. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The most that I 19 would be willing to agree to this evening is 20 to have the sign with the logo on the south 21 side and no sign on the west facade at all. 22 That's my feelings. 23 I will open it back up to comments. 24 Member Canup?
179 1 MEMBER CANUP: I wouldn't have 2 any problem with the sign on the south side. 3 And as you proposed except with the logo not 4 being there. I don't see a need for the 5 logo and I don't think it's going to attract 6 attention. People aren't going to go in 7 there just because of that logo. 8 The idea is to tell them what this is 9 and not who owns it. I could care less who 10 owns the place or who owns the franchise. I 11 want to know where -- if I am from out of 12 town I want to know that that's that type of 13 restaurant. 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Other comments? 15 Somebody present a Motion. 16 MEMBER CANUP: I think it would be 17 fitting for the Chairman to make a Motion in 18 this case. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You want the 20 Chair to make a Motion? I am not prepared 21 to make a Motion. 22 I write them out. 23 In case number: 07-062 filed by 24 Patrick Stieber of Allied Signs for 43710
180 1 Grand River Avenue, Pei Wei Asian Diner, I 2 move that we grant the variance to add one 3 additional sign on the south elevation as 4 indicated in the provided application due to 5 the reasons that the property does have a 6 hardship that visibility and the speed of 7 the traffic along Grand River Road makes it 8 difficult for identification purposes. 9 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Fischer? 11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Might I 12 amend the Motion to state that the Board use 13 the practical difficulty standard in this 14 case, not hardship. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Turn on your 16 mike and repeat that. 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Might I 18 amend the Motion to state that this Board 19 use the practical difficulty standard 20 instead of the hardship standard when 21 deciding this case. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That is the 23 appropriate terminology and I will change 24 the Motion to reflect that.
181 1 And we also have a comment from Mr. 2 Schultz. 3 MR. SCHULTZ: If I could, Mr. Chair, 4 suggest that you at least reference the 5 other sign that you are not granting the 6 variance on as not falling within the same 7 sort of exceptional circumstances related to 8 the property in that allowing the second 9 sign is sufficient identification such that 10 the third one isn't needed. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I will amend the 12 Motion to include the portion that the west 13 facade sign is not needed because there has 14 not been a demonstrated practical 15 hardship -- 16 MR. SCHULTZ: Difficulty. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Practical 18 difficulty due to the south sign meeting all 19 the requirements that we are looking for. 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is that 21 acting -- may I, Mr. Chair? 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is that 24 acting as our denial then?
182 1 MR. SCHULTZ: For that sign, that's 2 correct. 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. I was 4 planning on thinking doing an approval and 5 then a denial. If that works for you, it 6 works for me. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We can do it all 8 at once. 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Perfect. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is the seconder 11 -- 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: I accept. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Did you 14 understand the Motion? 15 MR. STIEBER: Yeah. Does that include 16 the logo or no? 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I didn't include 18 the logo. 19 MR. STIEBER: Okay. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Canup? 21 MEMBER CANUP: That was also my 22 question, was did that include the logo in 23 there where we are restricting the size? 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: As presented in
183 1 the Application is how I stated it which did 2 not include the logo on the south side. 3 MEMBER CANUP: I just want to make 4 sure that we get what we think we're 5 getting. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 7 by the Chair and a second by Member Krieger. 8 Any additional discussion? Please 9 call the roll. 10 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 12 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 13 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 14 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 15 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 16 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 21 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 23 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 24 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0.
184 1 MR. STIEBER: Thank you for your 2 time. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: At this time we 6 have reached another 90-minute segment, so 7 the Board is going to take a 10-minute 8 recess. We will be right back. 9 (A recess was held.) 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We are going to 11 reconvene. Move on to out next case. And, 12 of course, I am sure the Applicant notice 13 that we conveniently break before he 14 presents so he can prepare himself. 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Chair, 16 were you going to (Unintelligible.) 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. I want to 18 make a comment prior to moving forward. It 19 is our intent to complete the agenda this 20 evening. So all of you that may be 21 wondering whether we are going to get up to 22 your case and then we're going to adjourn 23 for the night, I plan on staying here and so 24 do my esteem colleagues, so we will go
185 1 through the entire agenda this evening. 2 So, we are up to case -- you guys 3 didn't know that, did you? 4 5 07-063 filed by Anne Vinstra of 6 Sign Graphix, Incorporated for 25500 7 Meadowbrook Road, Meadowbrook Medical 8 Center. 9 The Applicant is requesting three 10 ground sign variances for business sign 11 measuring seven feet in height and 75 square 12 feet in area as well as one wall sign 13 variance for a 30 inch by 144 inch 30 square 14 foot wall sign to be located at said 15 address. 16 The property is zoned OST and located 17 south of Eleven Mile and east of Meadowbrook 18 Road. Under our code of Ordinances Section 19 28-5(2)a.1..i2.ii, area height and placement 20 regulations state: Ground sign shall not 21 exceed a maximum of 30 square feet or 22 1 square foot for each 2 feet of setback 23 from the nearest street center line as 24 required herein, whichever is greater with a
186 1 maximum area 100 square feet. A ground sign 2 shall not exceed a height of 6 feet. 3 Also section 28-5(3)number of 4 on-premised advertising signs permit states: 5 No building or parcel of land shall be 6 allowed more than one sign. 7 So, our Applicant has come forward. 8 Because it's a new case we do have to 9 re-swear him in, correct? 10 MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I thought so. 12 Please be sworn in by our Secretary. 13 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 14 to tell the truth regarding case: 07-063? 15 MR. LUTZ: I do. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 18 your name for the record. 19 MR. LUTZ: My name is Bill Lutz with 20 Sign Graphix at 39255 Country Club Drive, 21 Farmington Hills, Michigan. 22 We have a little different case here 23 tonight on this one. This is one medical 24 facility with multiple tenants. It's a very
187 1 unusual topography which we will show with 2 the photographs. So we have some practical 3 difficulty that is not self imposed for 4 sure. What we are asking 5 for here is a ground sound at the major 6 entrance which is right in this area here. 7 This is a little difficult on the site plan. 8 You will see it photographically a little 9 bit better. And then one wall sign which is 10 actually going to be closer to the corner of 11 the building here. This is 120,000-square 12 foot building, two stories. 9,000-square 13 foot of surgical space here, an urgent care, 14 all kinds of specialty medical facilities in 15 this two-story building. 16 This is zoned industrial and this is one of 17 the reasons that we are kind of before you 18 tonight. The topography here is really very 19 different. 20 If you are southbound on 21 Meadowbrook this is the first time you will 22 actually see a little bit of that entrance. 23 So, the entrance is right here, this is the 24 first time you will see the sign. The
188 1 northern property line is way behind us over 2 here. In fact, if you were to look here and 3 be able to see through the trees, which you 4 cannot, that is about the middle of that 5 side of the building. So, we are about 6 250 feet away from that sign right now and 7 we're not on the edge of this property. 8 This property has 600 feet of frontage on 9 Meadowbrook. So it's a very unusual space. 10 You can start to see the slope as I 11 come around and look at it from this angle 12 now I am facing northbound on Meadowbrook, 13 you will see very easily the problem we are 14 having, the difficulty. You can barely see 15 the building. In fact, with the planning 16 that has been approved by the Planning 17 Commission, those are going to completely 18 obscure the building come spring time, I'm 19 sure. 20 So, given the grade, if you were to 21 look at this grade shift here, this grade 22 shift is about eight plus feet from sidewalk 23 level to this parking lot level right up 24 here. And that's only in a 40-foot span, so
189 1 it's a very severe grade. It's difficult to 2 walk up and it completely almost obscures 3 this building. You are only seeing kind of 4 the northern most part of the building. The 5 bulk of the building is over here. This is 6 the edge of the property line right here. 7 This is almost the first time you would see 8 this sign. 9 We tried to be very sensitive to the 10 structure of the building and to compliment 11 the building with the architecture and have 12 it blend in with this hill. Again, you can 13 see the steep rise, the top of the sign will 14 not equal the top of the parking lot. So 15 it's below of the parking lot level. So 16 we've got some real practical difficulty 17 visibility wise. 18 The urgent care sign you can't see is 19 going to be behind these trees. The urgent 20 care sign which is the additional 30-square 21 foot wall sign is really meant for people 22 that approach the driveway and get up into 23 the space because there are two entrances to 24 this building. There is the main entrance
190 1 for everybody else and then urgent care is 2 separate entirely because that is got to 3 have different hours. So we are controlling 4 that entrance. So we need to have some kind 5 of sign to get people around the corner of 6 that building. 7 On this sign right here, this 8 photograph, you start to see that urgent 9 care sign. It's a little 30-square foot 10 sign, it's not very large. It's not meant 11 to really be seen from the road, you can't 12 read it from the road. You can see the red 13 splotch and that's about it. It's meant for 14 folks that are coming up this drive and get 15 them over into this parking area and get 16 them in that entrance. 17 So, while we're asking for a little 18 larger sign than what's allowed, I think we 19 tried to make a concerted effort here to 20 respect the architecture, the lay of the 21 land and have an attractive sign that gets 22 people into this facility. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: This is a 24 public hearing, so is there anyone in the
191 1 audience who cares to speak on this matter? 2 If so, please come forward. 3 Seeing none, we will close the public 4 hearing and ask the Vice-Chair to read any 5 correspondence that may have been received.
6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 7 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 26 8 notices mailed and there were zero approvals 9 and zero objections. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Any 11 comments from the City or Counsel? 12 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Open it up to 14 the ZBA Board members for discussions. 15 Member Krieger? 16 MEMBER KRIEGER: I have a question. 17 The sign when I drove by today was in a V 18 shape. That's going to be different than -- 19 MR. LUTZ: Yes. That was a temporary 20 sign that the Applicant had a permit for 21 just to let people know what's coming. They 22 expect to open that facility fairly soon. 23 Urgent care is under construction right now. 24 That's not the permanent sign shape or size.
192 1 MEMBER KRIEGER: That's all I had. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. Other 3 members? Member Bauer? 4 MEMBER BAUER: I don't have any 5 problem with any of it. 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Good. I agree with 7 you a hundred percent. Thank you. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Sanghvi? 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: I agree. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 11 Member Fischer? 12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I have a 13 question for the City. Has this parcel come 14 before us before? Did you do any research 15 on this by chance? 16 MS. WORKING: I can't honestly answer 17 your question. 18 MR. AMOLSCH: This is the location of 19 the former Copeland Asphalt plant. 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Something 21 in recent history. For some reason I thought 22 I remember seeing this case, but I know we 23 have had a lot around there too. I just 24 wanted to make sure.
193 1 MS. WORKING: Mr. Lutz represented an 2 applicant that was located upper berm for a 3 sign request for Cooper Standard one or 4 two months ago. 5 MR. LUTZ: That was closer to Eight and 6 Haggerty, though. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. I 8 don't have any particular issue with what's 9 being requested. I don't see it as 10 unreasonable. 11 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 13 I had one question. You indicated that the 14 single door I believe below the urgent care 15 sign is a separate entrance for urgent care 16 only? 17 MR. LUTZ: Correct. There actually may 18 be some other units that are accessible 19 there, but urgent care is what we really -- 20 you go get through -- if you go in the main 21 entrance you can get to anywhere in the 22 building. But for urgent care you really 23 need to get in that end. Otherwise they got 24 to traverse a big building to get there.
194 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The main 2 entrance is for drop off and things like 3 that. But I didn't see a drop off area for 4 urgent care. 5 MR. LUTZ: There really is not a drop 6 off. There is separate parking off to the 7 side there, but there is not really a drop 8 off canopy as such like there is at the main 9 entrance, that's correct. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I have no 11 objections to this. I think it's reasonable 12 and applicable. I will entertain a Motion 13 at this time. 14 Member Krieger? 15 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 07-063 16 filed by Anne Vinstra of Sign Graphix, Inc., 17 for 25500 Meadowbrook Road, Meadowbrook 18 Medical Center, I move to approve the 19 request for the three ground sign variances 20 for a business sign measuring seven feet in 21 height and 75 square feet in area as well as 22 one wall sign variance for a 30-foot by -- a 23 30 inch by 144 inch or a 30 square foot wall 24 sign to be located at the same address. And
195 1 that the Petitioner has presented the 2 information showing his practical difficulty 3 with the berm and the height. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Do I need to add 6 anything else? 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 8 and a second. Motion by Member Krieger and 9 seconded by Member Bauer. 10 Any further discussion? Please call 11 the roll. 12 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 13 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 14 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 15 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 16 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 18 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 21 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
196 1 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 3 MR. LUTZ: Thank you again. I 4 appreciate it. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Have a good 6 evening. 7 8 Next case. Case number 07-064 9 filed by B-B Sign & Lighting for 47350 Grand 10 River Chase Bank. The Applicant is 11 requesting one area ground sign variance for 12 a 50-square foot ground sign to be located 13 at 47350 Grand River Avenue for Chase. 14 This business has approved wall 15 signage for the south and west elevations of 16 the building and will require an additional 17 variance to the number of on premises 18 advertising signs permitted. Property is 19 zoned OST and located north of Grand River 20 and east of Beck Road. 21 Novi Code of Ordinance Section 22 28-5(2)a.1 says: Area height and placement 23 regulations. Ground sign shall not exceed a 24 maximum of 30 square feet. Also section
197 1 28-5(3), number of on premises advertising 2 sign permitted states: No building or parcel 3 of land shall be allowed more than one sign 4 permitted. 5 At this time I believe the Applicant 6 has come forward. 7 MR. ANJORNO (ph): Yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: If you are not 9 an attorney please be sworn in by our 10 Secretary. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 12 to tell the truth regarding case: 07-064? 13 MR. ANJORNO: Yes. 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 15 your name and address and present your case. 16 MR. ANJORNO (ph): My name is Bob 17 Anjorno with B-B Signs. This address is 18 1528 East Eleven Mile. I am here on behalf 19 of Chase Bank to request a variance for a 20 monument sign at 47350 Grand River. 21 The variance we are requesting is 22 based upon a safety issue we have with 23 westbound traffic on Grand River not being 24 able to see the approved wall signage
198 1 because of the tree lines, the trees on the 2 adjacent lot that blocks the view of the 3 wall signs and we're concerned that that may 4 be a safety issue with traffic stopping and 5 trying to turn into the bank too quickly. 6 So a monument sign on that side of the 7 property would be more visible for the 8 westbound traffic and may prevent some 9 accidents. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is that it? 11 MR. ANJORNO: That's it. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: All right. This 13 is also a public hearing. Is there anyone 14 in the audience who cares to comment on this 15 case? 16 Seeing none, I'll close the public 17 hearing and ask our Vice-Chair to read any 18 correspondence we may have. 19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 20 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 19 21 notices mailed with zero approvals and one 22 objection, as stated by Joanne Ward of 47460 23 Eleven Mile Road. As previously stated: The 24 Ordinances are in place for a reason and the
199 1 Zoning Board gives requested variances. Why 2 isn't it possible to just change the 3 Ordinance? 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yeah, why is 5 that? No. 6 Any comments from the City or Counsel? 7 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Open it up to 9 the Board for discussion. 10 Member Canup? 11 MEMBER CANUP: This is another one of 12 those places right across the street from a 13 30-foot tall sign proposed anyway. I don't 14 see a need for that sign. There may be some 15 trees there, those trees aren't going to 16 last too long because that's going to change 17 very shortly. I would suspect that area is 18 developing so rapidly that I think probably 19 within the next year that land will be 20 cleaned off and something will be built 21 there. So, the story with trees might work 22 today, but for long-term it's not something 23 that I would take into account. 24 Keep in mind that whatever we do in
200
1 granting a variance is permanent. It's not 2 something that's going to go away today or 3 tomorrow or the next year. It will be there 4 20 or 30 years from now. 5 Again, I see no need for a variance at 6 this site. One of the reasons is the 7 building itself is a sign. If you got to 8 that building and you don't know what it is 9 you're in trouble. You don't need to be 10 going inside of a bank. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 12 Member Canup. 13 Member Sanghvi? 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, I agree a 15 hundred percent with Mr. Canup's comments. 16 This is an unnecessary sign and that's all 17 there is. Thank you. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Fischer, 19 you had a comment? 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No, sir. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Oh, I thought you 22 were raising your hand. 23 Any other Board comments? 24 Okay, I have a couple here, of course.
201 1 First of all, I wanted to ask, are we aware 2 if the property on the east is regulated 3 woodland or wetland, east of the bank? I 4 don't think it is looking at the lay of the 5 land. Are you aware of that, sir? 6 MR. ANJORNO: I am not aware of that. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The reason I 8 bring that up, obviously if it's a regulated 9 woodland, for example, the trees would never 10 be removed. 11 MR. ANJORNO: That would be a hardship 12 on our behalf. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And I agree with 14 Member Canup that that's going to be 15 developed some day so there will be a 16 building or something next to it. 17 MR. ANJORNO: Excuse me, but I was 18 just told that it is a regulated wetland at 19 this time. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Well, that is a 21 consideration to think about. Are we 22 permitted? Member Canup talked about 23 granting a variance is permanent. Are we 24 permitted to grant temporary signage for up
202 1 to perhaps two or three years until we see 2 if that property is developed? 3 MR. SCHULTZ: Typically, we have 4 advised the Board that temporary variances 5 are not something that the Board should 6 consider. On the other hand, you are 7 allowed to put conditions on the grant of a 8 variance. If the Board finds that certain 9 fact in favor of granting the variance might 10 change or go away or become different, then 11 your condition could be not a time limit, 12 but that the variance would cease or the 13 sign would come down if a certain thing 14 occurred. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sure. Thank 16 you. 17 Also I had asked the City and they were kind 18 enough to pull the information for me. The 19 signs of the other two Chase Banks in the 20 Novi property line and both of them 21 basically if I remember correctly are 22 25 square foot is what was approved. And it 23 seemed a little small for the one on Grand 24 River, and I went out and measured it myself
203 1 and it appears to be closer to 40 square 2 foot. So, my thought is that if we approve 3 a sign at all, that would be the maximum 4 that I would be looking for would be a 5 40-square foot sign. I would not be 6 considering anything larger than that. 7 Any other comments from the Board? 8 Anyone care to make a Motion? Member 9 Canup? 10 MEMBER CANUP: I would make a Motion 11 that in case number: 07-064 Chase Bank at 12 47350 Grand River that we deny the variance 13 as requested for the 50-foot square ground 14 sign due to a non-demonstrated hardship. 15 MEMBER BAUER: You want to change that 16 to Twelve Mile Road? 17 MEMBER CANUP: I'm sorry. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Grand River. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's okay. Second. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a 21 comment from Mr. Schultz. 22 MR. SCHULTZ: A couple of comments if 23 I may through the Chair. Number one, a 24 reminder that this is, the sign Ordinance is
204 1 a practical difficulty standard not the 2 hardship standard. 3 MEMBER CANUP: So I need to change my 4 Motion to lack of a demonstrated practical 5 hardship. 6 MR. SCHULTZ: Practical difficulty. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Practical 8 difficulty. 9 MEMBER CANUP: Practical difficulty, 10 okay. 11 MR. SCHULTZ: And then the other thing 12 would be in terms of the standards and 13 Member Fischer referenced the standards in a 14 couple of Motions earlier as I understand 15 the rationale here, you are finding that 16 there aren't facts or circumstances unique 17 to this property in terms of visibility; is 18 that correct? 19 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, it is correct. 21 MR. SCHULTZ: To the maker of the 22 Motion. And then that the failure to grant 23 the variance would not unreasonably prevent 24 or limit the use of the property or result
205 1 in more than a mere inconvenience because 2 your position is that the building can be 3 seen with the existing signage, correct? 4 MEMBER CANUP: That's correct. 5 MR. SCHULTZ: As long as those are 6 added to the Motion. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is the seconder 8 in agreement? 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, I agree. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 11 and we have a second. 12 Any further discussion? Please call 13 the roll. 14 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 15 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 16 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 19 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 21 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 22 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: No. 24 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer?
206 1 VICE-CHAIR FISHER: No. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Motion to deny passes 5 5-2. 6 MR. ANJORNO: Thanks. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 8 9 The next case is number 07-065 10 filed by Amson Dembs for 46050 Twelve Mile 11 Road, Novi Corporate Campus. 12 The Applicant is requesting a 13 temporary special exception permit renewal 14 for the placement of a temporary sales 15 trailer to be located at said address from 16 September 11th, 2007 through September 11th, 17 2009. The property is zoned I1 and located 18 east of west Park Drive and north of Twelve 19 Mile road. 20 Under the City Ordinances Section 21 30043 temporary special exception permits 22 states: The building official or his 23 designee shall have the power to grant 24 permits authorizing temporary special land
207 1 uses for temporary buildings not to exceed 2 two years in undeveloped sections of the 3 city. 4 And so I have to interpret that the 5 building official did not choose to grant 6 this? 7 MS. WORKING: That is not correct. 8 The building official did grant it and the 9 term has expired and after that the Board 10 makes the decision. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you for 12 that clarification. 13 The Applicant has come forward. If you 14 are not an attorney please be sworn in by 15 our Secretary. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 17 to tell the truth regarding case: 07-065? 18 MR. MIRICK (ph): I do. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: State your name 20 and address and present your case. 21 MR. MIRICK: Brian Mirick from General 22 Development Company. We're partners with 23 Amson Dembs on the Novi Corporate Park. 24 Address Two Town Square, Suite 850,
208 1 Southfield, Michigan. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 3 MR. MIRICK: We are just at this time 4 seeking a 2-year extension on the temporary 5 special land use for our sales trailer at 6 this site. We pretty much use it for 7 marketing, meeting with potential tenants, 8 and at this point just want to extend the 9 renewal period for two years. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. This 11 is also a public hearing. Is there anyone 12 who cares to come forth and comment on this 13 case? 14 Seeing none, I will close the public 15 hearing and ask the Vice-Chair if there has 16 been any correspondence? 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 18 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 16 19 notices mailed with zero approvals and zero 20 objections. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Any 22 comments from the City or Counsel? No 23 comments, we'll turn it over to the Board 24 for discussion.
209 1 Member Wrobel? 2 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 In the Planning Commission we have seen a 4 lot of activity in the Corporate Park. It 5 seems like most of it is pretty well plotted 6 out and going. That's why I am questioning 7 why you need two years. I could understand 8 another year. 9 The way things are going out there you could 10 be gone in two years. And I hate to just 11 give you that flexibility of hanging on to 12 the last minute just keeping the trailer 13 there when it's no longer needed. 14 So I would like to put an earlier time 15 limit on it if we could of a year I think 16 would be sufficient. And at that time if 17 they need more they can come back again. 18 MR. MIRICK: I don't think we would 19 object to that. My only argument to that 20 would be by the time we go through the 21 approval process, get perspective tenants 22 out there, we are still probably at least 23 two years out from developing the remaining 24 seven parcels out there, that's why we are
210 1 just asking for the 2-year extension period. 2 But we wouldn't be opposed to the one year. 3 MR. WROBEL: That's all, Mr. Chair. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 5 Member Fischer? 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Amolsch 7 have we had any issues with this as it sits? 8 MR. AMOLSCH: None that I am aware of, 9 sir. 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I don't 11 object to moving it down to one year. But I 12 wouldn't object to two years and then 13 putting some type of restriction on it if
14 they were to leave that they would need to 15 be rid of this as well. So, I will leave it 16 up for the motion maker. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Canup? 18 MEMBER CANUP: I don't have a problem 19 with them having a structure there. When 20 you drive by there the place looks like it's 21 kind of shabby looking to be truthful. If I 22 were you I wouldn't be very proud of it. I 23 guess I would be willing to grant a six 24 month and another look at it in six months
211 1 and if you don't straighten it up that would 2 be the end of it. 3 That's my opinion. There is an 4 opportunity and I would be willing to make a 5 Motion to that effect. 6 Can we do that legally? Give them six 7 months with a look at it in six months 8 without the Petitioner having to come back? 9 MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. 10 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Six months and 12 if it's approved at that time extend it for 13 the remaining 18 months? 14 MEMBER CANUP: Six months. I would 15 only be willing to go a year at a time. 16 That's open for discussion. That's just -- 17 Mr. Bauer has a comment. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. Member 19 Bauer? 20 MEMBER BAUER: I would like to see the 21 grass cut around that place. It's pretty 22 bad. 23 MR. MIRICK: We can certainly do that. 24 I can call and have that done tomorrow
212 1 morning. 2 MEMBER CANUP: Again, it goes back to 3 the lack of maintenance. I drive by it 4 frequently and always think it kind of 5 looks, as I stated, not something to be 6 proud of. 7 With that I would be willing to -- 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Mr. Schultz I 9 believe has a comment first. 10 MR. SCHULTZ: I was just going to say 11 through the Chair that as a part of any kind 12 of an approval you can put those kind of 13 conditions on, that there be some property 14 maintenance to the building to clean it up 15 and that the grass be regularly cut. Those 16 are permissible conditions. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 18 MEMBER CANUP: I would make a Motion 19 that in case: 07-065 Novi Corporate Campus 20 that we grant the variance as requested for 21 a one year period with a six month look at 22 and an extension for six months beyond that 23 if the Applicant has demonstrated basically 24 a clean up of the property.
213 1 MEMBER BAUER: I second it. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is that to be 3 reviewed by our Board or be reviewed by the 4 Building Commission? 5 MR. CANUP: It would be to be reviewed 6 by this Board in six months without the 7 Applicant having to make application for 8 that. 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So like 10 under other matters? 11 MEMBER CANUP: Pardon? 12 MR. SCHULTZ: We can do that, yes. 13 MEMBER CANUP: Not necessarily under a 14 full blown case but under other matters. 15 Thank you. 16 MR. SCHULTZ: Two comments if I could 17 to change variance to temporary use and then 18 just make the finding that it's been there 19 and it hasn't constituted a change in the 20 use of property and that it's appropriate 21 assuming these conditions are met. 22 MEMBER CANUP: Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's the 24 Motion. Do we have a second?
214 1 MEMBER BAUER: Yeah. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It's been 3 Motioned by Member Canup. Second by Member 4 Bauer. 5 Any further discussion? 6 MEMBER BAUER: Yeah. One question. 7 Six months it's going to be snow on the 8 ground just remember. That's all. 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Canup 10 can personally tell us if the grass is cut. 11 MEMBER CANUP: Six months from now 12 that will be what? March? 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: I was going to point 14 out the seasonal but you did it for me. 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We'll be 16 fine. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's okay. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thirty days from 19 now there is liable to be snow on the 20 ground. 21 MEMBER BAUER: You're right. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, we have a 23 Motion and a second. 24 No further discussion, please call the
215 1 roll. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 3 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 5 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 8 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 10 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 12 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 13 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 14 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 16 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 17 MR. MIRICK: Thank you. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 19 20 Okay, our eleventh case. Case 21 number 07-066 filed by Jackson Olson for 22 23866 Woodham Road. 23 The Applicant is requesting three variances 24 for the placement of a storage shed located
216 1 in the rear yard at said address in Echo 2 Valley Subdivision. 3 The homeowner is requesting one 4 4.16-foot setback variance for the side 5 property line, one 3-foot setback variance 6 for the rear property line and relief from 7 the strict application of the accessory use 8 requirement that no accessory building be 9 located within an easement. The property is 10 zone R-1 and located west of Beck Road and 11 south of Ten Mile. 12 Under the City of Ordinances Section 13 2503.1 G states a detached accessory 14 building shall not be located closer than 15 six feet to any interior side lot or rear 16 lot line. All the required setbacks are 17 stated in the agenda. I will not read 18 those. 19 The Applicant has come forward. If 20 you are not an attorney please be sworn in. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 22 to tell the truth regarding case number: 23 07-066? 24 MR. OLSON: Yes, I do.
217 1 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state your 3 name, address and give us your case. 4 MR. OLSON: My name is Jackson Olson. 5 I live at 23866 Woodham Road. 6 What started out as a weekend project 7 has now turned into an education in civic 8 responsibility. After checking with my 9 local neighborhood association I found that 10 I had to not only file an application with 11 my neighborhood association, but then was 12 advised by the president of the association 13 to also check with the City as to the 14 legality or the acceptability of putting in 15 a garden shed. So I did come down and spoke 16 with a gentleman here at City Hall. And 17 they told me according to my plan that it 18 would be best to file for the variances. 19 The reason why I am placing it in that 20 position, if you will look at the mortgage 21 schematic there, I have also included an 22 expanded detail. There is an existing brick 23 walkway that if I moved any closer to would 24 really encroach upon that.
218 1 If I went over to the right-hand side 2 of the property there, what's not shown in 3 the mortgage statement here is some very 4 large trees that were pre-existing as well. 5 They are probably 100 years old. The 6 particular corner I did choose if you were 7 to view it with one of the overhead views, 8 it's a heavily wooded area, that's why I 9 chose to back it up towards there. 10 The home directly next door to me 11 and the two behind me, that corner is 12 heavily wooded, and that seemed to be the 13 least egregious position for it. If I go 14 over to the right side of the property, 15 that's all open with the next door neighbors 16 and it kind of spoiled the growing view, 17 so-to-speak, so that's why I chose that 18 area. 19 Since I went with probably the 20 smallest building that I could get by with, 21 this really is about the only position I 22 could find to put it. And that's it. Thank 23 you. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: There is a
219 1 public hearing. Is there anyone in the 2 audience that cares to come forward and 3 speak on this case? 4 Seeing none, I will close the public 5 hearing and ask our Vice-Chair about 6 correspondence. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 8 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 30 9 notices mailed with two approvals and four 10 objections. 11 Billy and Arlene Richards of 23905 12 Woodham objected stating that: We agree 13 with the Ordinance and there should be no 14 exceptions to this Ordinance. The owner of 15 property knew when he purchased this that it 16 had a small back lot. This structure would 17 face the street and possibly down the road, 18 become an eye sore. 19 Beatrice Lendorfer (ph) of 23910 20 Woodham states an approval saying that: 21 This is next to my property line and the 22 Petitioner takes good care of the property 23 and is an excellent neighbor. 24 Nancy Shaw of 23960 Lynwood: Objects
220 1 with no comments. 2 Frank Malone 23947 Lynwood: Approves, 3 no problem. May he enjoy his new storage 4 shed. 5 Charles Haffy (ph) of 23842 6 Woodham notes an objection stating that: 7 The purpose of the standards and rules 8 adopted by the homeowner association is to 9 protect and increase values. These standards 10 are available to perspective homeowners 11 prior to their purchase. The current rules 12 do not allow for construction unless it is 13 to replace an existing shed. Every realtor 14 that I have spoken with has told me that the 15 storage sheds do not increase the value of 16 the home. If additional space is 17 required then a home addition should be 18 required. 19 Jim and Nancy Kohn (ph) of 23843 20 Lynwood: Approval with no comments. 21 Robert Favor of 23931 Woodham: 22 Objects stating that: He feels the 23 homeowner should comply with the city and 24 subdivision rules. He has property, plenty
221 1 of room on his property. 2 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That seemed like 4 more than two approvals and four objections. 5 Any comments from the City or Counsel? 6 No comments, I'll open it up to the 7 Board for discussion. 8 Okay, I will start on this. You 9 have indicated that it's the smallest shed 10 available for the 10 by 10 -- 11 MR. OLSON: It's the smallest shed 12 available that I can utilize. The reason 13 why I chose to put a shed in in the first 14 place was that most of the homes in the Echo 15 Valley subdivision are slabs -- or excuse 16 me, built with crawl spaces. So a lot of 17 them don't have basements. So consequently 18 the garages tend to absorb most of what most 19 folks would keep in their basements. I do
20 have a yard tractor. I do have various 21 pieces of yard equipment. With a two car 22 garage, the yard equipment. Of course, all 23 my utilities are kept in the garage. My hot 24 water heater, my water system so on and so
222 1 forth, we're running out of room. 2 So, it seemed like a $400 to $600 3 shed would easily correct those problems. 4 Mr. Haffy points out that I can 5 remodel. So, it's four or five hundred 6 dollars versus several thousand dollars. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is there a 8 reason why the brick wall couldn't be moved 9 closer to the house to allow you to bring 10 the shed further away from the property 11 lines? 12 MR. OLSON: The brick walk as 13 pre-existing when we got there. It's a 14 substantial walkway. I think that why it 15 makes an architectural detail here on the 16 mortgage statement. It's fairly 17 substantial. I mean it's four feet wide and 18 it's quite winding there in the back lot. 19 Once, again, as I pointed out earlier, 20 the large trees which are probably anywhere 21 from 50 to 100 years are back there in the 22 lot. They don't make it in here in the 23 drawing. And that's why once again I chose 24 this position.
223 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: How much space 2 is between the front of the shed and the 3 brick wall? 4 MR. OLSON: I would say it's probably 5 less, I didn't detail it here in my expanded 6 drawing, but it's probably less than 7 five feet. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, it must be 9 moved right up on the walk? 10 MR. OLSON: Exactly, yeah. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Does that take 12 you away from the easement or out of the 13 easement? 14 MR. OLSON: Repeat that, I'm sorry. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: If it was moved 16 right up to the edge of the walk would that 17 take your shed out of the easement? 18 MR. OLSON: I'm not quite sure. The 19 reason why I've got it back as far from the 20 walkway as I can is it does have doors that 21 open up. I think if it were moved any closer 22 and you open the doors up then you are 23 hitting the walkway. So that's why I kind 24 of positioned it where I did.
224 1 I could have remained the 6-foot 2 minimum if I had put it more in a 3 conventional position there, rather than say 4 that angled view there, but once again, I 5 thought that was the least egregious 6 position to put it in. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's the only 8 questions that I have. I'll will open it 9 back up to the Board again. 10 Member Wrobel? 11 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you. As I look 12 through the package I see that this was 13 approved by your homeowner's association? 14 MR. OLSON: Yes, it was. 15 MEMBER WROBEL: There was a 16 contradictory in one of the comments they 17 said it wasn't. 18 I have got an issue about placing it 19 there. It seems like you are going to be in 20 your easement and I'm not sure what the 21 City's requirements would be if they would 22 be placing that structure in an easement. 23 MR. FOX: We checked into that 24 easement. I believe it's a drainage
225 1 easement of some kind. It's just surface 2 drainage. There is nothing underground 3 there. The homeowner because he is only 4 going three feet into it could provide us 5 with a hold harmless letter for that 6 structure to be over top of that easement 7 which would give them the okay to build it 8 on that. 9 MEMBER WROBEL: Do you know what the 10 easement depth is at that point? 11 MR. FOX: It's six feet from the 12 property line. 13 MEMBER WROBEL: It's six feet, okay.
14 That's all, Mr. Chair. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 16 Member Wrobel. 17 Member Sanghvi, do you have a comment? 18 Okay, we will go with Mr. Canup first. 19 Member Canup? 20 MEMBER CANUP: Could that building be 21 rotated so that it's square with the 22 property lines and move it out? Really I 23 think the only place that we have a problem 24 is the property line and not so much on the
226 1 back where the easement is. I wouldn't have 2 a problem with it being three feet in the 3 back and then six feet on the side. 4 MR. OLSON: I did consider that, sir, 5 and I thought that, once again, I thought 6 that from an aesthetic standpoint was much 7 more attractive than if we were to rotate it 8 as you suggest, the doorway faces the 9 street. This way you see the side which I 10 feel is a better, once again it's definitely 11 more pleasing than that way. 12 MEMBER CANUP: How about if you 13 rotated it the other way? 14 MR. OLSON: Then you are facing the 15 next door neighbor's lot. Kind of directly 16 like that. Once again, I found it a little 17 more aesthetically better if the doorway 18 faced the back of our home rather than 19 somebody else's lot. So what they are 20 seeing it would be nice clad boarding on the 21 side. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Krieger? 23 MEMBER KRIEGER: A question. Would you 24 put landscaping around it?
227 1 MR. OLSON: Oh, yes, it would be 2 painted in a color compatible with the home 3 and landscaped as the entire backyard is 4 landscaped. So, it's just not grass and the 5 walkway, it's extensively landscaped. 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Because he has the 7 approval with the homeowners association and 8 he is willing to landscape it and make it 9 blend in as well I have no objection to it. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 11 Member Fischer? 12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You know, 13 the way that I look at this in general is, 14 this gentleman is going to put a shed in his 15 backyard. He can either put it square with 16 the two property lines and it would look not 17 as nice, or he can put it this way which 18 does create a request for a variance, but in 19 my eyes will actually look a lot better. 20 But either way, he is going to have a shed. 21 He is going to get a shed. Because if he 22 didn't get this variance he will do it and 23 he'll put it the other ways which won't look 24 as nice.
228 1 Given that aesthetic point of view, I 2 don't see how I could deny this. I would 3 like to see the hold harmless letter as 4 requested or suggested by the City staff. 5 And I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Any 7 other comments from this side? 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: No, I think we have 9 had enough comments. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Do you want to 11 entertain a Motion? 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Sure. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Sanghvi. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 15 Case number: 07-066 filed by Jackson Olson 16 for 23866 Woodham Road, we grant the 17 requested variance because of inability to 18 set this shed in any other place which would 19 be more aesthetically acceptable. Thank 20 you. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Do you want to 22 include the hold harmless? 23 MR. SCHULTZ: If I may, Mr. Chair, on 24 that. It may be more than a hold harmless.
229 1 They may need some approval under the City 2 Code relating to drainage. It may be hold 3 harmless. It may be also an approval from 4 the Engineering Department. So, at least the 5 hold harmless and then whatever other 6 approvals from the City that are necessary. 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Providing all City 8 requirements are met. Thank you. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: There is a 11 Motion by Member Sanghvi. A second by 12 Member Bauer. 13 Any additional discussion? 14 Please call the roll. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 18 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 20 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER? Aye. 23 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 24 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
230 1 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 4 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 7 MR. OLSON: Thank you. 8 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Our next 10 case is number: 07-067 filed by Jeff Deakin 11 of Michigan Signs, Incorporated for 41840 12 West Ten Mile Road for Busch's. The 13 Applicant is requesting one 181 square foot 14 wall sign variance for a logo name plate and 15 them box sign for the new Busch's 16 Supermarket located in the Novi Ten Shopping 17 center. The property is zoned B-3 and 18 located north of Ten and west of 19 Meadowbrook. 20 Under the City Ordinance requirements 21 Section 28-5(2)b.(a)(i)a, area height and 22 placement regulations states: That business 23 having a first floor pedestrian entrance 24 shall be allowed 1 1/4 square foot of
231 1 signage per linear foot of contiguous public 2 or private street frontage up to a maximum 3 of 65 square feet. 4 The Applicant has come forward. If you 5 are not an attorney, please be sworn in by 6 our Secretary. 7 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear 8 or affirm to tell the truth regarding case: 9 07-067? 10 MR. DEAKIN: I do. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 13 your name and address and present your case. 14 MR. DEAKIN: My name is Jeff Deakin. 15 I am here to represent Michigan Signs in 16 this case. Michigan Signs is located at 17 4101 Jackson Road in Ann Arbor, Michigan -- 18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: May I 19 interrupt, Mr. Chair. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I think we can 21 go ahead and close that door if you would, 22 please. They can still hear through the 23 television broadcast out there. 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is
232 1 plenty of seats as well. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And there 3 are seats inside the auditorium as well if 4 they care to come in. Thank you, sir. 5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I'm sorry, 6 sir. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please go ahead. 8 MR. DEAKIN: I'm here to represent 9 Busch's request's for corporate signage to 10 be put on the wall. This would be the 14th 11 Busch's store in which this corporate 12 signage has been installed by Michigan Signs 13 in various communities around you. Most of 14 the cases it's been about 200 square foot of 15 signage. Due to the size of the facade, the 16 signage did get reduced down from the other 17 remaining community signs down to this 181 18 square foot. 19 The 181 square foot is by drawing the 20 box around the entire sign which includes a 21 pineapple frond at the top of it as you can 22 see, then the word Busch's and a theme box 23 at the bottom. 24 It does have over 200 lineal foot of
233 1 frontage on this building. He is the anchor 2 tenant in this mall, and aesthetically 3 looking at this sign compared to the other 4 signs that are in this mall, we thought that 5 this looked proportional and appealing and 6 legible from Meadowbrook Road. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is that it? 8 MR. DEAKIN: Yes. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: This is a public 10 hearing, is there anyone in the audience 11 that cares to speak on this case? 12 Seeing none, I will close the public 13 hearing and ask the Vice-Chair to discuss 14 any correspondence that we have received. 15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 16 Mr. Chair. In this case there were 24 17 notices mailed with two approvals and zero 18 objections. 19 Pamela Ann Brown of 24228 Kingspointe: 20 Approves. We are so looking forward to a 21 nicer place to shop and feel that they 22 should be given carte blanche for this 23 shopping center area. I haven't worked on my 24 French recently, but.
234 1 Richard Ludwig of 29508 2 Northwestern Highway in Southfield, Michigan 3 48034: Approves. 4 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 6 Any comments from City or Counsel? 7 MR. AMOLSCH: I think the Petitioner 8 mentioned something about 180 square feet. 9 Actually the area is 246 square feet as 10 parallel around. Hence is the 181 square 11 foot variance. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Two hundred and 13 what, Mr. Amolsch? What was the size? 14 MR. AMOLSCH: Their plan said 15 297 inches by 119.45 inches, 246 square 16 feet. That's what we reviewed. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Before we turn 18 it over to the Board do you care to comment 19 on that, sir? 20 MR. DEAKIN: Yeah, I guess I didn't 21 catch. What was submitted was 297 inches 22 long by -- what was the height that you had? 23 MR. AMOLSCH: 119.45 inches in this 24 rendering you mailed on August 16th.
235 1 MR. DEAKIN: I would apologize for 2 that if those calculations are not correct. 3 I don't have them here in front of me to 4 double check that what was -- I have it as 5 162 square foot of signage on mine I see 6 here. And I know we said 181. 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: What do you have up 8 there now? 9 MR. DEAKIN: What I have up there now 10 is this 28 inch box on the bottom with the 11 55-inch letter and the logo on the top being 12 28 inches tall. So what is on this slip of 13 paper here is what the mock-up signage is on 14 the wall. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. Thank you. 16 MR. DEAKIN: And if I calculated the 17 square footage wrong, I'm sorry. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I'll open it up 19 to the Board. 20 Member Canup? 21 MEMBER CANUP: I don't think there is 22 a problem, personally I don't think there is 23 a problem with the sign. I would like to 24 see two things go away. The fresh food
236 1 ideas and the little pineapple thing on the 2 top. That would bring his signage down to, 3 you would have to figure that out in inches, 4 55 by 297. And that would be less than what 5 they originally asked for, right? 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Correct. 7 MEMBER CANUP: So that we cannot give 8 them more than they originally asked for, 9 but we can give them less without having to 10 go back and make another case out of it, 11 correct? 12 MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. 13 MEMBER CANUP: So, that would be my 14 take on it is to grant a variance based on 15 Busch's, because I don't think people will 16 go there because of that fresh food ideas is 17 going to sell a thing for them. And the 18 pineapple on top, you can get rid of that, 19 have Busch's there and it will look just 20 fine. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Wrobel? 22 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 23 To staff, again, the size of this proposed 24 sign versus what Rite Aid's size is, because
237 1 Rite Aid is massive I think. Is this 2 proportioned or smaller? 3 MR. AMOLSCH: I believe I gave that 4 information to the chairman. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The City 6 calculated that at 120 square foot for Rite 7 Aid and for Aco at 192 square foot. 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: One more 9 time? 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The City shows, 11 and the reason I say the City, because the 12 Applicant showed different sizes. The City 13 showed the Rite Aid sign at 120 square feet 14 and the Aco sign at 192 square feet. 15 MEMBER WROBEL: I really have no 16 problem with it. It hides a lot of the 17 flaws in the shopping center which I would 18 like to see go away. And I understand it's 19 part of their logo with the pineapple and 20 the tag line underneath, so, I have no 21 problem with it. Thank you. 22 MR. SCHULTZ: Mr. Chair, can I 23 comment on that? I know we have cautioned 24 the Board before to avoid getting into the
238 1 actual words on the sign. What you are 2 primarily concerned about is the size of the 3 sign, not so much what they choose to put 4 within it. So in terms of limitation I 5 guess I would prefer to see the Board talk 6 about size rather than logos and things like 7 that. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. 9 Member Bauer first. 10 MEMBER BAUER: This was Novi's first 11 supermarket. We didn't have nothing around 12 here. I like the sign as it is. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Canup, 14 additional comment? 15 MEMBER CANUP: My comments that I made 16 about eliminating the fresh food and the 17 little pineapple on top, I really don't have 18 a problem with those if they can build them 19 within a 55 by 297 square foot area. 20 And quite truthfully I think what's 21 there it looks well balanced with the 22 building, with the facade of the building. 23 So I would -- is there any further 24 discussion?
239 1 I would make a Motion. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Go ahead. We 3 can discuss it after the Motion. Go ahead. 4 MEMBER CANUP: I will wait if there is 5 some further discussion. 6 That in case number: 07-067, that we 7 grant a variance as requested with the 8 restriction of a total size of the sign not 9 to exceed 55.35 inches. Is that correct 10 what I'm reading there? By 297 inches in 11 length. 12 MEMBER BAUER: I'll buy that. Second. 13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 14 and a second. Further discussion? 15 I respectfully disagree with that. 16 I'm afraid it would reduce the size 17 substantially. Probably bringing it closer 18 to the size that was provided in our 19 renderings. They provided us two different 20 sizes. Do you have that by chance up there? 21 MR. DEAKIN: I do not have that with 22 me tonight. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Would you like 24 to take mine and put it up for the rest of
240 1 the audience to see as well? The one on the 2 top, I think would be closer to the sign 3 that's proposed in the Motion. The one on 4 the bottom to me looks more proportional in 5 comparison to the Aco and the Rite Aid sign, 6 so I would be in favor of the larger sign 7 myself. That's my comment. 8 Any other comments from the Board 9 members prior to the vote? 10 We have a Motion. We have a second. 11 Robin, please call the roll. 12 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 13 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 14 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 15 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 16 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 19 MEMBER WROBEL: No. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: No. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: No. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger?
241 1 MEMBER KRIEGER: No. 2 MS. WORKING: Motion fails 2-5. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member 4 Fischer? 5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. 6 Amolsch, I just want a clarification. The 7 is 181 that we have noticed we're all set 8 with that given the different dimensions and 9 everything? 10 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes. 11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All set 12 with the 181. The 181 would be the rendering 13 that's on the bottom of this packet I was 14 given, right? 15 MR. DEAKIN: Correct. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Which is the 17 same as the mock-up sign presently up there. 18 MR. DEAKIN: It's the same as the 19 mock-up, correct. 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: In that 21 case, Mr. Chair, I would move that in case 22 number: 07-067 filed by Jeff Deakin of 23 Michigan Signs for Busch's at 41840 West Ten 24 Mile Road we grant the Petitioner's request
242 1 given that the Petitioner has established 2 practical difficulty. He has established 3 that the frontage of the supermarket 4 warrants the sign. That it will be more 5 proportionate and, therefore, substantial 6 injustice will be done to this Petitioner as 7 well as the other people in the complex. 8 That this is the anchor store of 9 the complex which also warrants a larger 10 sign and that this is due to circumstances 11 that are unique to this property and this 12 store as opposed to conditions that exist 13 generally in the City. 14 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 16 by Member Fischer and a second by Member 17 Krieger. 18 Any further discussion? Please call 19 the roll. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 23 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer?
243 1 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 3 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 8 MS. WORKING: Member Canup. 9 MEMBER CANUP: No. 10 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve passes 11 6-1. 12 MR. DEAKIN: Thank you for your 13 time. 14 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Moving 16 forward. Case number: 07-068 filed by 17 Patty Loose of Sign Fabricators for 43350 18 Grand River Avenue Potbelly Restaurant. The 19 Applicant is requesting seven wall sign 20 variances for the new Potbelly restaurant to 21 be located at said address. 22 Applicant request two 98 square foot 23 illuminated wall signs to be located on the 24 north and south elevations of the building
244 1 indicating the Potbelly logo, two band wall 2 signs with copy measuring 7.3 square feet 3 and displaying sandwiches, copy measuring 4 2.7 square feet and displaying soup and copy 5 measuring 6.5 square feet and displaying 6 smoothies to be located on the north and 7 south elevations of the building. 8 One band wall sign with copy measuring 9 7.3 square feet and copy displaying 10 sandwiches measuring 6.0 square feet and 11 displaying ice cream to be located on the 12 west elevation of the building. An 13 additional band wall sign with copy 14 measuring 2.7 square feet and copy 15 displaying soup, copy measuring 4.2 square 16 feet and displaying shakes to be located on 17 the west elevation of the building as well 18 as an additional 111 square foot Potbelly 19 logo wall sign to be located on the west 20 elevation of the building. Potbelly is 21 zoned TC and located north of Grand River 22 and east of Novi Road. 23 The Ordinances are listed in the 24 agenda. I am not going to read all of
245 1 those. 2 The Applicant has come forward. If you 3 are not an attorney, please raise your hand 4 and be sworn in by the Secretary. 5 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 6 to tell the truth regarding case: 07-068? 7 MR. BROOK: Yes, I do. 8 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 10 your name, address and your case, please. 11 MR. BROOK: Robert Brook 21544 12 Audette, Dearborn, Michigan. 13 I am here representing Sign 14 Fabricators. What they are looking for is 15 sort of like one of the earlier cases. They 16 want to get the north and south elevation 17 covered for visibility sake with the 18 Potbelly logo signs. And the west elevation 19 with their logo. The sandwich, soup, 20 smoothies and ice cream, soups, shakes and 21 all that is non-illuminated letters that are 22 just along like a strip along the top that's 23 illuminated with overhead lighting that is 24 hitting the building.
246 1 And that's about the size of it. 2 Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. This 4 is a public hearing. Is there anyone in the 5 audience that cares to comment on this case? 6 Seeing none, I'll close the public 7 hearing and ask the Vice-Chair if there is 8 any correspondence? 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 10 Mr. Chair. 11 In this case number there were 33 12 notices mailed with zero approvals and one 13 objection. The objection comes from Kim's 14 Garden at 26150 Novi Road. The objection 15 states: That our establishment has been at 16 this location since 1979 and followed all 17 the City Code of Ordinances. They currently 18 only have one sign and they have been told 19 that other signs may cause traffic problems 20 and/or accidents by drivers distracted by 21 the signs. If all the new restaurants are 22 able to obtain signs and sign variances, 23 then everyone should be afforded the same 24 opportunity.
247 1 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 3 Any comments from the City or Counsel? 4 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I will turn it 6 over to the Board for discussion. 7 Member Fischer? 8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Let me 9 start with wow. If we can go ahead and put 10 a rendering up there, Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Do you have a 12 rendering with you, sir? 13 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is this the 14 same? Were you here for previous cases? 15 MR. BROOK: I was here for a case a 16 couple months ago. 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: My question 18 being that we had the Asian Diner in here. 19 Is this going in the same location as that? 20 MR. BROOK: It's in that general area, 21 yeah. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Not the same 23 building.
24 MR. BROOK: Not the same building.
248 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I think 2 that the sandwiches, soups, smoothies, ice 3 cream, shakes, soups, I think that's going 4 to be overkill. I know I cannot support 5 that in any manner. I don't know of any 6 other restaurant that was allowed to put 7 their whole menu as a banner on top. 8 Otherwise we would have every restaurant 9 doing that. 10 I also drove by the Six Mile and 11 Haggerty Potbelly today and I didn't see 12 that at that location. Oftentimes I can 13 understand when a business has a need for 14 icons and similar logos. But it seems like 15 the business is willing to waiver on that. 16 As far as the three signs, I don't 17 feel I can support all three either. I 18 would be willing to hear my colleague out 19 and hear their opinions, but I think that 20 three signs, including two signs and a large 21 logo is just overkill. 22 I look forward to this business being 23 here. I think they are a great business, 24 but unfortunately, I think they were much
249 1 misguided when they put together this 2 proposal. 3 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 5 Member Bauer? 6 MEMBER BAUER: These seven, you 7 already had approval for one? 8 MR. BROOK: I didn't see that we had 9 gotten an approval yet on even one of these. 10 We wanted to see if we could get the whole 11 package and then work with whatever the 12 Board comes up with to allow us. 13 MEMBER BAUER: One you get free as 14 long as you are within the square footage, 15 that's why I asked if you had approval of 16 it. 17 MR. BROOK: Not that I know of. 18 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. 20 Bauer. 21 Additional comments? Mr. Wrobel? 22 MEMBER WROBEL: I definitely agree 23 with Member Fischer. I could not support 24 the wall band. I may consider after
250 1 listening to my colleagues, consider a 2 second sign, but that's about it. Thank 3 you. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Canup? 5 MEMBER CANUP: We need to keep in mind
6 that this building is a multi-tenant 7 building, and that there is going to be to 8 others in there that we are going to have to 9 address at some time in the future. 10 I would say that my opinion would be 11 that the bands across the top, that's not 12 even in consideration. And that the wall 13 signs I would be willing to go with two wall 14 signs, but they would have to be within the 15 size limits of our present Ordinance. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 17 Member Canup. Am I correct that there has 18 not been any mock signs put up on this 19 building? 20 MR. BROOK: I am afraid you are 21 correct. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I drive by it 23 every day and I look for it everyday. 24 MR. BROOK: They had a problem with
251 1 getting the graphics together and they just 2 didn't get it. When they told me that I was 3 like, you are throwing me into a frying pan 4 here. They like to see the mock-ups. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I for one am a 6 very visible person. I like to see it 7 first. 8 MR. BROOK: I understand. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I don't feel 10 that I can support this at all without 11 seeing the mock-up signs in place. It's 12 part of our requirement of the City, and I 13 think we need to stick to it. Any other 14 comments? 15 MEMBER CANUP: Make that into a 16 Motion. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: I will make a Motion 18 that we table this case until the mock-up is 19 set up. 20 Case number: 07-068 by Patty Loose of 21 Sign Fabricators for 43350 Grand River 22 Avenue Potbelly Restaurant. This case should 23 be tabled until the mock-up signs go and are 24 visible for the Board members to evaluate
252 1 the situation. 2 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion 4 and a second. 5 Further comments? Member Fischer? 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. 7 Chairman, my only recommendation or comment 8 would be, would it be appropriate to look at 9 the wall band tonight given the Board's 10 sentiment? Basically I don't want to see 11 them put up a wall band if the Board has 12 already given its determination on that. 13 MR. SCHULTZ: Through the Chair, I 14 think if they want to continue to request 15 that variance, I think they are permitted to 16 do it. 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Do the 18 whole thing then. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: An additional 20 comment that I will make is, you have heard 21 several comments of the Board. Obviously 22 they are not in favor of the band. Several 23 think that these signs are too large. It's 24 an overkill type thing, so us tabling it
253 1 would give you the opportunity to go back to 2 the drawing board and come back to the Board 3 in a month and hopefully have something that 4 you would seriously consider. 5 We have a Motion on the floor and 6 a second. The Motion was by Member Sanghvi 7 and seconded by Member Bauer. 8 Please call the roll. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 12 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 14 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 18 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 21 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 22 MS. KRIEGER: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING. Motion to table passes 24 7-0.
254 1 MR. BROOK: Thank you. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 3 Should we go one more case tonight? 4 You think we should? Okay. 5 6 Case number: 07-059 filed by 7 Scott Smith of Clark Hill for the Adell 8 Brothers Trust is our next case. 9 The Applicant is requesting a 10 consideration of a delayed administrative 11 appeal of a determination by the Deputy 12 Director of Community Development stating 13 that the use of the former Novi Expo Center 14 as a trade center/market does not fall 15 within the uses allowed in an EXPO district. 16 Applicant is further requesting a 17 use variance from the strict application of 18 the provisions of Article 10, EXO Exposition 19 Overlay District of the Novi Zoning 20 Ordinance. The property is zoned EXPO and 21 located west of Novi Road and south of I-96. 22 Under the Zoning Board of Appeals the 23 Rules of Procedure, Article IX Amendments 24 and Appeals to the Board, Section 9.1,
255 1 Appeals to the Board states: Any Applicant 2 shall have the right to an appeal to the 3 Board no later than 30 days from the 4 administration action which is the subject 5 of the appeal. If the right to appeal 6 expires, an applicant may seek leave to 7 bring a delayed appeal based upon clear and 8 convincing demonstration of good cause for 9 the delayed appeal. The Board shall vote 10 upon whether or not to consider the delayed 11 Appeal prior to consideration of the merits 12 of the petition. 13 Under City Ordinance Section 3104 14 1.a., Administrative Review states: The 15 Zoning Board of Appeals shall hear and 16 decide appeal where it is alleged by the 17 appellant that there is an error in any 18 order, requirement, permit, decision or 19 refusal made by the Building official or any 20 other administrative official in carrying 21 out or enforcing provisions of this 22 Ordinance. And, lastly, 23 the City of Novi Code of Ordinance Section 24 3104 1.b., Jurisdiction states: The Zoning
256 1 Board of Appeals shall have the power to 2 authorize, upon appeal a variance for the 3 strict application of provisions of this 4 Ordinance whereby the strict application of 5 the regulations enacted would result in 6 peculiar or exceptional difficulties to or 7 exceptional undue hardship upon the owner of 8 such property provided such relief may be 9 granted without substantially impairing the 10 intent and purpose of the Ordinance. 11 Is the Applicant present? Please 12 come forward. And you are an attorney, 13 correct? 14 MR. SMITH: I am. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, you do not 16 need to be sworn in. 17 MR. SMITH: Is that because you think 18 all attorneys are honest or it's not worth 19 swearing them in? MEMBER BAUER: 20 We have that myth. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The word 22 swearing is very subjective. 23 What we intend to do is at this point, 24 I will mention this upfront is we are going
257 1 to address the issue first of the delayed 2 appeal. So please present us a brief 3 synopsis, a brief case on your appeal for 4 the delay and we will act on that 5 accordingly prior to moving forward. 6 MR. CLARK: When we get Ms. MacBeth's 7 letter in April, we refined our request, 8 went back to the drawing board, did some 9 rethinking and resubmitted a letter to Ms. 10 MacBeth on July 5. And in response to -- or 11 on June 8th. And in response to that 12 letter, Ms. MacBeth said with regard to your 13 explanation of the trade center, while we 14 appreciate your effort to provide additional 15 information, my reaction is that the 16 language in your letter combined with the 17 plans you've submitted outline a purely 18 retail use. Such a retail use would not in 19 my opinion be consistent with the previous 20 use on the facility. I look at her letter 21 of July 5, as being an appealable decision. 22 And that's what we initially did. 23 It clearly expresses her 24 interpretation based on the specific
258 1 additional information provided in the 2 June 8th letter. More than that, Mr. 3 Chairman, I would submit that there is 4 preferable practice for an Applicant or 5 somebody seeking the City's approval of 6 something to keep going back and forth and 7 having dialogue with City staff before 8 coming to this Body. 9 Your agenda's are certainly long 10 enough, as we can see tonight. And coming 11 without having had the additional dialogue 12 means that the facts aren't as well 13 determined. The positions aren't as well 14 reasoned and so forth. And it seems to me 15 it's in your best interest, as well as the 16 Applicants and the Planning staffs to have 17 that additional dialogue. 18 So, with that in mind we would request 19 that although we're not conceding it is a 20 delayed appeal, we would request that you 21 consider it as such for this evening. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. At
23 this point I would look to the Board to 24 decide whether or not we want to allow the
259 1 delayed appeal. 2 Member Fischer? 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Chair, 4 I would move that we allow the delayed 5 appeal given that this Board finds that 6 there would be little to be gained by not 7 allowing the appeal on this decision, and 8 refusing to act on the appeal would not make 9 the issue go away as our use variance. 10 That the recommendation of our 11 attorney agrees as such and that given the 12 miscommunication displayed by the Petitioner 13 that clear and convincing demonstration for 14 good cause has been shown. 15 MEMBER BAUER: Second the Motion. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. We 17 have a Motion and a second. 18 No discussion, please call the roll. 19 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer? 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 21 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 22 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 24 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
260 1 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 8 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 7-0. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. The 11 delayed appeal has been approved. So we can 12 move forward. 13 At this time what I would like you to 14 do is present your entire case for both the 15 appeal and the variance request. After that 16 we will move on to the public hearing and we 17 will go into the comments and go forward 18 from there. 19 MR. SMITH: The good news is that I'm 20 not going to talk about signs tonight. 21 My name is Scott Smith. I am from 22 Clark Hill. We represent Kevin Adell and 23 the Adell Brothers Children's Trust. 24 As a practical matter I have more
261 1 familiarity with your side of the table. I 2 am general counsel to seven communities. 3 And serve as special counsel to a number of 4 others, so it's a rare occasion that I stand 5 on this side of the podium. 6 Kevin Adell is here tonight as is 7 Ralph Lameti, the trustee for the trust. 8 And there are other attorneys here 9 representing various parties and 10 representing the property owner in various 11 issues. Michael Lewis of the Bodman firm 12 represents the Novi Trade Center 13 Association, a Michigan non-profit 14 corporation. And you will hear from him in 15 a few minutes. 16 Norman Lippitt and Julie Lyons 17 Kosovec of the firm Hymann and Lippitt 18 represent the trust in most of its matters. 19 And Adam Cohen (ph) has represented 20 the trust in some recent litigation 21 involving the city. Various others are here 22 who wish to be exhibitors and perhaps more 23 importantly we have some local business 24 persons here who support the Novi Trade
262 1 Center concept. 2 At one point we had over 300 people 3 here. Unfortunately it's gotten rather late. 4 Those with child care issues or jobs had to 5 leave. That kind of deprives the Board of 6 their input, but I guess that's where we are 7 at this point tonight. 8 A couple of initial comments, if 9 I might. 10 Kevin Adell is a successful businessman. 11 That means he is persistent and persevering. 12 It means he can put together and implement a 13 successful business plan. It means he can 14 market and sell. 15 Now, Kevin's methodology for putting 16 together a proposal is a little different 17 than most. Because Kevin doesn't just put 18 out a pro forma and ask everybody to stand 19 up and salute it, Kevin makes sure the model 20 works first by finding out if the people are 21 actually going to buy the product. In this 22 case, are there people willing to be 23 exhibitors in Novi Trade Center. And he 24 does that by advertising and otherwise
263 1 trying to generate the support for it. So, 2 he lines up potential users to gauge whether 3 it's a workable concept rather than just 4 doing a pro forma. It's a pre-subscription 5 kind of way of doing business. 6 It tends to guarantee success. And 7 tends to allow for selectivity in this case 8 as to who will be able to exhibit in the 9 Novi Trade Center, and allows you to more 10 easily see what can and will occur. 11 Let me highlight some issues in 12 the interpretation issue. Before I do that, 13 however, let me explain exactly what the 14 Novi Trade Center concept is. That's 15 important because I think a number of people 16 have misconceptions, and those 17 misconceptions may be the root of some of 18 their concerns. 19 The Novi Trade Center will have a 20 number of small exhibitors, mostly mom and 21 pop kind of operations. Many from the Novi 22 community. They will be exhibiting and 23 selling antiques, handcrafted items that are 24 personally produced by the sellers such as
264 1 small wooden items like water fowl decoys, 2 bird feeders, yard ornaments, furniture 3 items, quilts, aprons, sewn items, specialty 4 embroidery items, metal work, photographs 5 and so forth. A lot of things you would see 6 at craft shows. Small lamps, flags, banners 7 and so forth. They would be items that 8 would be exhibited and sold by those who 9 have personally produced them and who 10 personally owned them. 11 Collectibles, collectibles could be anything 12 that is collected like coins, stamps, toys, 13 stuffed animals, all the kinds of things you 14 might see on the antiques road show or other 15 places, figurines, guns and weapons, sports 16 memorabilia, musical instruments, 17 phonographic records and so forth. 18 What it will not be, there will be no 19 personal services such as hair cutting, body 20 piercing or tattooing. And other than 21 antiques and collectibles, no used items. 22 Now, it's contemplated that it would be 23 great to have some closeout items in a small 24 portion of the building from area merchants
265 1 that might include some closeout clothing, 2 furniture or floor coverings. 3 These items would be displayed 4 and exhibited in booths set up entirely 5 within the Novi Trade Center building. They 6 are standardized. They are shown on the 7 plans. They are roughly six by twelve. An 8 exhibitor may wish to have double or triple 9 space. There are about 1,200 shown on the 10 plans. There are aisles that meet 11 accessibility requirements. Each booth has 12 its own electrical drop. So, unlike most 13 trade shows, you are not going to have 14 extension cords running all over the place 15 with duct tape on the top. 16 Food would be in centralized areas as 17 depicted in the drawing. No alcohol would 18 be sold. There would be a fee for parking. 19 And it would operate Saturday morning 20 through Sunday evening using Fridays and 21 perhaps Thursday evenings as set up times. 22 The purposes for zoning in Michigan 23 are limited. Municipalities have no 24 inherent right to zone. The only right we
266 1 get to zone in this state is the right that 2 is expressly granted by the legislature. 3 And the legislature grants zoning can be 4 undertaken for a few purposes. 5 First, regulation to preserve while 6 providing for reasonable access to and use 7 of natural resources, assuring lands 8 available for residential, recreational and 9 businesses types of uses. Providing 10 appropriate living and working conditions 11 through grouping and separating uses. And 12 assuring that sufficient infrastructure 13 exist to support land uses and to support 14 the public health, safety and welfare. 15 A zoning Ordinance may not exclude an 16 otherwise legitimate use from an entire 17 municipality. And it can't exclude certain 18 types of people. 19 In fact, state law and federal law 20 require that zoning be inclusive and that we 21 as communities provide a broad range of 22 housing and a broad range of shopping and 23 other kinds of opportunities. 24 A Zoning Ordinance can't protect the
267 1 social economic status of a community. 2 That's an illegitimate use of a Zoning 3 Ordinance. If you look at the your Zoning 4 Ordinance language in Section 1001, it talks 5 about the principle uses permitted the Expo 6 District. The Novi Trade Center concept is 7 consistent with the themed expositions held 8 at the Novi Expo Center over more than a 9 decade. Externally, they're identical. The 10 use pattern is the same. It's a weekend 11 use, it's all interior. The parking is the 12 same. The traffic circulation is the same. 13 The signage is less offensive because some 14 of the signage for which variances were 15 granted has been removed. The landscaping 16 has been improved and the building is in 17 better shape. 18 Internally it's identical. 19 Historically at the Novi Trade Center there 20 were gem shows, gun and knife shows, coin 21 shows, baseball card shows, doll shows, 22 rubber stamp shows, computer shows and 23 sales, bead shows, machine shows, sewing 24 expositions, art fairs, pet exposes and
268 1 other shows and events. 2 The exhibitors at each and every one 3 of those shows displayed, traded, bought and 4 sold items, at every one every weekend. 5 They needed to do that. They aren't 6 museums, those exhibitors aren't. They were 7 there to make money. 8 Even larger events such as home 9 improvement shows, RV shows, bridal shows 10 and others featured items for sale. And 11 those exhibitors who did not have 12 deliverables at the event would take orders 13 or arrange for future meetings to provide 14 estimates, more information or so forth. 15 For instance, at a home show a 16 landscaper might do that or a replacement 17 window provider or those that provide 18 sprinkling systems or realty services. This 19 is true of all trade shows in every location 20 across the country. Now, the City 21 recognized that reality. When the City 22 created the overlay zone for Rock Financial 23 Showplace it expressly now allows sales as 24 part of every show that the Rock Financial
269 1 Showplace puts on. What the City did in its 2 ordinance was recognize formally what it had 3 been informally allowing over the course of 4 a decade. 5 Now, they are a couple of 6 interior changes to the building. For one 7 thing the Applicant has corrected numerous 8 code violations that have been existing for 9 almost the entire existence of the Novi Expo 10 Center. There would be pre-constructed 11 booths and fixed aisles with electrical 12 outlets at any booth. Improved lighting and 13 fire suppression and other upgrades. It 14 would make a safer facility more easily 15 accommodating patrons and should require 16 less City oversight. 17 So from a permissible regulatory 18 standpoint, the Novi Trade Center is no 19 different than the Novi Expo Center. That is 20 from every land use perspective, the 21 operation is essentially the same. You 22 would not notice any difference externally 23 or internally. So, if you are looking on 24 the effect on regulation of natural
270 1 resources and all of those permissible items 2 of zoning, it's the same. 3 It's intended that the Novi Trade 4 Center be slightly aimed at a slightly 5 different clientele or different set of 6 exhibitors than the Rock Financial 7 Showplace. It's intended to be 8 complimentary to, not competitive with the 9 Rock Financial Showplace. 10 And strictly speaking, the Novi Trade Center 11 complies with the plain language of the 12 Ordinance. 13 The Ordinance allows sales up to six 14 times a year and what is going to happen 15 here is that there will be six two-month 16 sales every year, each sale involving a 17 particular theme, a back-to-school theme, a 18 spring theme, a holiday theme or whatever. 19 Now, the Ordinance itself doesn't 20 say what a time is in duration. It's not 21 limited to one or two days, weeks, weekends 22 or so forth. So the Novi Trade Center would 23 have 16 shows each year with each lasting 24 two months. The exhibitors would commit to
271 1 at least two months of the theme show and 2 the Ordinance doesn't expressly limit the 3 length of any show and consequently doesn't 4 limit the length of the sales events. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Mr. Smith, 6 may I interject. As I mentioned earlier in 7 the evening, we allow the Applicants to 8 present for 10 minutes. With the magnitude 9 of this case and the time that's involved, 10 et cetera, I am going to permit you to go 11 beyond that. So I wanted to make sure that 12 you understood that. 13 MR. SMITH: I did understand that. 14 Mr. Schultz sent me a letter that I 15 indicated I had as much time as I thought I 16 needed. So, I am not trying to make this 17 longer. 18 The other point is, that if there is 19 any ambiguity in the Ordinance, the 20 ambiguity in the Ordinance gets construed 21 against you, against the City, against the 22 drafter of the Ordinance, not against the 23 person against whom you are trying to 24 enforce it.
272 1 The second issue is the use variance. 2 We suggest that if you don't agree with us 3 on the interpretation, then in the 4 alternative, we are looking for the use 5 variance, and we believe we meet all four 6 criteria for that. The first criteria, 7 building structure and land cannot be 8 reasonably used for any of the uses 9 permitted by right or special approval use 10 within the Zoning district. 11 If the Board upholds Ms. MacBeth's 12 interpretation, then the property can't be 13 used as an exposition center. As I 14 explained, every exposition involves sales 15 and the cities implicitly recognize that 16 with the new exposition overlay. So, it 17 takes those uses out. That means the only 18 allowable uses would be light industrial 19 uses. And the Applicant worked diligently, 20 though, unsuccessfully for a period of over 21 two years to try to market it to light 22 industrial users. He contacted scores of a 23 wide variety of possible light industrial 24 users. Contacted warehouse and distribution
273 1 centers. 2 There was no interest by anyone in using 3 that property for light industrial use. 4 The former operator of the Novi Expo 5 Center tried to market the property for a 6 variety of uses. He ultimately sought and 7 was denied rezoning of that property to a 8 B-3 zoning district. 9 Interestingly, one potential lessee 10 who approached the former Novi Expo Center 11 operator was the festival marketplace, a 12 Florida based entity that owns and operates 13 upscale operations somewhat like what is 14 planned as the Novi Trade Center. And 15 interestingly, Novi's own mayor visited that 16 establishment and came back very favorably 17 impressed and enthused about it. 18 Despite years of marketing efforts not 19 a single potential light industrial user had 20 shown any interest in the site. In fact, 21 the only users that have shown any interest 22 in the site are those that want to use it 23 for some kind of sales activities. 24 A letter we attached from a commercial
274
1 industrial real estate broker explained the 2 site is ill-suited to light industrial uses. 3 Even as expansive as such uses are under the 4 City's Zoning Ordinance. 5 The current economy for such sites is 6 continuing to deteriorate. There is a huge 7 glut of available light industrial property 8 on the market, especially in the Metro 9 Detroit area. Most of which or much of 10 which is newer and much better suited to 11 light industrial uses. The existing 12 building has too few loading docks, too many 13 support pillars, a poor layout for modern 14 industrial uses and not enough office space 15 for R & D kind of uses. 16 The City's future land use plan is an 17 impediment. The City's future land use plan 18 shows that property as downtown west which 19 it projects to include commercial, 20 entertainment and cultural uses. 21 Practically speaking, nobody is going to 22 invest a lot of money in that property only 23 to have it turn into a nonconforming use 24 soon after that investment when the City
275 1 completes its master planning process. The 2 downtown west use, however, seems more 3 consistent with the neighboring retail and 4 other uses. 5 The second criteria, the need for 6 the variance, requested variances due to 7 unique circumstances or physical conditions 8 of the property. Some of those I talked 9 about with the site limitations given the 10 building and its historical use. If you 11 look at the proximity to retail and other 12 commercial uses and if we think of the 13 Michigan economy and the City's own master 14 plan, it's clearly not a self-created 15 hardship. 16 The market conditions are what 17 they are, the nature of the building is what 18 it is. The third criteria, the proposed use 19 will not alter the essential character of 20 the neighborhood. Again, the Trade Center 21 concept is essentially virtually identical 22 to the Expo Center concept. It won't alter 23 the neighborhood any more than the Expo 24 Center use altered the neighborhood. It's
276 1 compatible with the adjacent retail and 2 commercial uses and the area merchants 3 support it. 4 Mr. Adell has contacted most of 5 those area merchants and they signed a 6 petition which has been submitted. In 7 addition, we have some letters from some 8 others, and they all believe that it would 9 increase their business for area lodging 10 facilities, restaurants, retailers and 11 others. A number of them were here tonight, 12 I don't know if they still are. 13 The fourth criteria, the need for 14 the variances, not the result of the actions 15 of the property owner, this again overlaps 16 criteria number two, but the Applicant has 17 tried to market the property under the terms 18 of the Zoning Ordinance. An attempt was 19 even made to rezone the property and the 20 variances needed due to the interpretation 21 of the Zoning Ordinance rendered by the city 22 in this case. It's due to the real estate 23 market. It's due to the City's own planning 24 efforts and its due to the character of an
277 1 aging building that's no longer suitable for
2 light industrial uses. 3 Now, let me give you a few concluding 4 thoughts. About an hour ago we learned that 5 there were eleven objections filed and some 6 supporting letters. I have five supporting 7 letters here I will submit to the recording 8 secretary. But those objections are all to 9 a flea market. The Novi Trade Center is not 10 a flea market. 11 Not as we think of flea markets in most 12 cases. These are go be to be fixed booths. 13 They are people who are going to have 14 two-month contracts. They are people that 15 are selling their own goods. But it's not a 16 situation where they are selling used items, 17 where they are selling cheap stuff. It's a 18 different type of setting entirely. 19 Secondly, those objections, 20 most of the people filing the objections 21 have no real proximity to the property in 22 question. You need to allow some use of the 23 property. Some use has to be made of that 24 property.
278 1 And there is no other use that they have 2 been able to show through marketing efforts 3 that is available for the property. And the 4 reasons they give for their objections 5 aren't legitimate planning and land use 6 reasons. If you read the letters, they are 7 essentially saying we don't want those kind 8 of people in our community. And that's not 9 acceptable. 10 Finally, those objections are easy to 11 make and I found sitting on your side of the 12 table, that all of the time people come in 13 and think they know best what somebody else 14 ought to use their property for. But they 15 don't invest in it themselves, they are not 16 promoting anything. They are not out there
17 owning it. They are not carrying it. They 18 are not losing money daily when they can't 19 use it. 20 The viability of the Novi Trade 21 Center concept is beyond question. Over 22 4,000 persons have contacted the Applicant 23 with an interest in being an exhibitor. 24 That allows him to be very selective in who
279 1 exhibits in that building. 2 The community support is strong 3 from potential exhibitors and from area 4 businesses. It's compatible with the City's 5 planning efforts. It could function well as 6 an interim use. It's consistent with the 7 business uses along Novi Road. The Trade 8 Center is consistent with the historic uses 9 of the site as an Expo Center. 10 And, finally, I think that the Novi 11 Trade Center creates a real win, win, win 12 concept. Certainly it's a win for the 13 property owners because they get a viable 14 use of a site. It's a win for area merchants 15 who long for uses that will bring additional 16 patrons to the area. It's a win for the 17 residents who wish to be exhibitors. It's a 18 win for the City because it's more 19 consistent with the master plan than an 20 industrial use. And it's a win for Rock 21 Financial Showplace because it should draw 22 more people to the community in a compatible 23 not a competitive kind of way. 24 And I'm sorry for being so long.
280 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's all 2 right. We said we would grant additional 3 time. We wanted to make sure you had an 4 opportunity to say everything that needed to 5 be said. 6 Okay, this is a public -- Oh, I'm 7 sorry. 8 MR. LEWISTON: We had attempted to 9 divide up some of the presentation and I 10 will be much briefer than Mr. Smith. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We appreciate 12 it. 13 MR. LEWISTON: But there are a few 14 things that he wished me to say. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sir -- 16 MR. LEWISTON: I am Michael Lewiston. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You do need to 18 be sworn in unless you're an attorney. 19 MR. LEWISTON: I am an attorney. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Name and address 21 please and then go ahead and talk. 22 MR. LEWISTON: I am Michael Lewiston. 23 I am with the Bodman, Longley law firm. I 24 represent the Novi Trade Center Association,
281 1 a Michigan non-profit corporation. 2 It was formed for at least two 3 purposes. Promoting the general welfare and 4 common good of Novi and the surrounding 5 area. And to also speak for over 4,000 6 business people who have contacted Mr. 7 Adell, his organization and parties 8 connected with this to support the request 9 which is being made tonight to permit the 10 operation of the Novi Trade Center. 11 We have organized and analyzed some of 12 these people. A little idea of who they are 13 and where they are from. The 4,000 people 14 breakdown these are area codes and just for 15 your general information, 734, basically 16 Livonia, Canton and Plymouth. 810, 17 basically Flint, Howell and Brighton. 248, 18 Oakland County. 586 Macomb County. 517 the 19 Lansing area. 313 generally Detroit and 20 surrounding area. That's about 99 percent 21 of the over 4,000 people who have contacted 22 us asking to be part of this venture. 23 For purpose of making a record in 24 these proceedings I wish to introduce, and
282 1 we will file tonight, an analysis of over 2 2,000 of these people naming them, 3 identifying them and pointing out how many 4 of them deal in such things as jewelry, 5 antique collectibles, clothing, arts and 6 crafts, electronics, music, books, 7 novelties, household items. And we will be 8 presenting this tonight. 9 These businesses include the 10 things that Mr. Smith spoke about. They are 11 quite suitable for the Trade Center concept 12 which we are promoting. In addition, we 13 have heard from a number of local people, I 14 hope some of them are still here tonight, 15 many of them were here earlier tonight who 16 are supporting the Novi Trade Center 17 concept. This is a list which we will be 18 filing with the secretary, of the Novi 19 residents who have contacted us and wish to 20 be part of this Trade Center concept. They 21 are very talented people. They would be 22 very useful. 23 Also, within the people who have 24 contacted us and want to participate, are a
283 1 number of businesses who have signed a 2 petition, which we are filing, and the 3 Petition reads: I support the Novi Trade 4 Center and want the City to grant the 5 permits to open and help bring over 2,000 6 jobs to the City of Novi. The Novi Trade 7 Center will bring 30,000 visitors to City of 8 Novi each weekend which will result in 9 increased activity and incremental commerce 10 for the City of Novi and local businesses. 11 This includes not only people who 12 wish to participate, but many of your local 13 merchants who want this traffic and they 14 want this crowd in your city on the 15 weekends. 16 Mr. Smith is going to be filing some 17 correspondence that he has received. We 18 have correspondence also we have received 19 from local people supporting this project. 20 Finally, over 300 people appeared here 21 tonight to support it. The hour is late, 22 it's 12:35 right now. They have work 23 tomorrow, they have children tomorrow, all 24 of us do. They had to leave. I think I owe
284 1 it to them and perhaps you owe it to them to 2 at least have their names, they signed in as 3 they came. So, I will be offering the names 4 of those people who came here tonight 5 because this matter was so important to 6 them. 7 I think that the City of Novi 8 needs this kind of business. One merely has 9 to look at the parking lots in the area. 10 The Trammell Crow Trade Center project. The 11 vacant spaces that are there. The Fountain 12 Walk project in bankruptcy. Main Street, 13 these are good projects, but the times are 14 harsh. The times need help. 15 This Body is in a position to 16 give that help to help its own people to 17 turn an empty building into something 18 productive. They should not be turned away. 19 Some of these letters that have been 20 filed as objections are flea market 21 objections. This is not a flea market as 22 Mr. Smith so eloquently stated. But I want 23 to state that in the last 48 hours, we have 24 learned in more detail just what did happen
285 1 three years ago. 2 Mayor Landry went to Florida, 3 went in the south Florida area, met with the 4 festival people. The festival people are 5 major, major flea market operators. Some of 6 you have been in the Lauderdale or Boca 7 area, Broward County, may know the one on 8 sample. It is frankly a marvelous 9 operation. It's a wonderful operation of 10 its kind. 11 It's owned by Daniel Schuster. 12 The mayor met with Daniel Schuster. The 13 mayor invited Daniel Schuster to bring the 14 festival here. Daniel Schuster negotiated 15 with the then tenant of the Town Center 16 structure on a lease. No objections were 17 raised. He was a desired and sought after 18 occupant. That deal in 2004 broke up on 19 some money issues. The festival couldn't 20 reach a deal with the then tenant at the 21 structure. 22 But he was a wanted person. The 23 festival would have been wonderful. We plan 24 to go a step beyond that. We plan to bring
286 1 in the kinds of people and the kinds of 2 trade that lend themselves to a more 3 sophisticated presentation. 4 But this is not anything which is 5 new. Had it not been for some square 6 footage cost problems in 2004, you would 7 have had a festival there. No claim that it 8 violated an Ordinance, no claim that it was 9 an improper use. 10 The uses that are being requested and 11 that these people support are basically what 12 this Center has been doing for a dozen 13 years. There is no sound reason to deny the 14 continuation of that use. The use has been 15 good for the city. It's been profitable for 16 the city. It will be profitable for these 17 people, your own citizens. 18 Retails sales have been part of 19 the operation of this center for years. 20 Everybody who has gone there knows that. You 21 know that. An interpretation which says 22 that it is not permitted is simply 23 outlandish, it has never been enforced 24 before, it was never even said before. It
287 1 wasn't wrong to do it all those years. 2 It should be permitted now. It should be 3 permitted as a matter of what the Ordinance 4 which is the same Ordinance now as it was 5 then. 6 That Ordinance should be 7 construed to permit what was done for years. 8 And if for some strange reason it shouldn't 9 be construed that way, then a variation, a 10 variance should be granted to permit the use 11 which has gone on for a dozen years. The 12 economy here needs a boost. These people 13 need a boost. This project is the first 14 step in granting that. 15 I don't know if any of the people wish 16 to speak, but I am sure you will be inviting 17 them if they do care to comment. Thank you 18 very much. 19 MR. SCHULTZ: Mr. Chair, may I 20 briefly? 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Certainly. 22 MR. SCHULTZ: Our office did get a 23 letter from Ms. Kosovec earlier today 24 informing me in connection with a Freedom of
288 1 Information Act request that perhaps the 2 City was unaware or had forgotten in 3 responding to that lawyer's request about 4 the travels of the Novi mayor as Mr. 5 Lewiston indicated. As a result of that 6 letter I called Mayor Landry who assured me 7 in no uncertain terms that he has no 8 recollection of every being in Pampano 9 Beach, doesn't believe he has ever been 10 there as an adult. 11 He as authorized to indicate that 12 today. I think Mr. Lewiston might want to 13 correct the record and say perhaps he 14 doesn't know for sure that Mayor Landry was 15 there. 16 MR. LEWISTON: Tom, I was told that 17 and one of the people who told me that had 18 spoken to Mr. Schuster also. 19 MR. SCHULTZ: I want to make sure that 20 Mr. Lewiston and his people are -- 21 MR. LEWISTON: I have no firsthand 22 knowledge. 23 MR. SCHULTZ: I want to make sure Mr. 24 Lewiston and his people are clear. Mayor
289 1 Landry clearly indicated that what he 2 represented is not true. 3 MR. LEWISTON: Very well. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. The 5 record will show that. 6 Is there any other representatives 7 from your organization, Mr. Smith, that's
8 going to speak prior to opening it up to 9 public hearing? 10 MR. SMITH: No, Mr. Chairman. 11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 12 MR. SCHULTZ: The record should also 13 reflect Mr. Lewiston handing to our ZBA 14 secretary which I think the Board ought to 15 accept and receive and file. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We will accept 17 them and be part of the record. I do want 18 to know, however, we had not had the 19 opportunity to review any of those. 20 Okay, at this point it is a 21 public hearing as I mentioned. Hopefully 22 everybody has filled out their cards that
23 care to speak, so we are going to ask for 24 people to come forward and when you come
290 1 forward bring your card with you to give to 2 our recording secretary so we can have an 3 accurate account as to your name and 4 address. 5 So, who would like to come forward 6 first? Gentleman. 7 Give that to Ms. Working. Each person 8 also will need to be sworn in and state your 9 name and address for the record verbally as 10 well. 11 MEMBER BAUER: So you solemnly swear 12 that you will tell the truth regarding this 13 case? 14 MR. JOSEPH: Yes, I do. My name is 15 Chris Joseph. I live at 22485 Morgate 16 Street in Novi. I also own a business in 17 Novi at the same address. I'm a general 18 contractor who is currently doing work at 19 the Novi Trade Center. And I employ not 20 only various groups of subcontractors, but 21 many people that work in the City of Novi. 22 Different vendors from generator companies 23 that we are going to purchase a generator 24 from, from sign companies, all different
291 1 types of vendors we have tried to keep that 2 within the City of Novi. 3 This venture, not only from the 4 onset is good for this area from a business 5 standpoint, but from an ongoing standpoint 6 there is going to be items needed, 7 contractors needed, vendors needed. And Mr. 8 Adell has made it a point to use vendors in 9 the City of Novi, because he very much plans 10 to keep this as a kind of a local thing. 11 So, his directive to me was to 12 try to find as many vendors in the City of 13 Novi that I could use to keep it localized. 14 And I will be brief because I know there is 15 probably other people who want to speak. I 16 think it would be a very worthwhile venture 17 in a time when the economic impact in the 18 city is low. 19 That's all I would like to say 20 and thank you very much. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, sir. 22 Second speaker, Please. 23 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your right hand. 24 Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the
292 1 truth regarding case 07-059? 2 MR. MARA: I do. 3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 4 your name and address. 5 MR. MARA: Joseph Mara, Sr., 41872 6 Brownstone Drive, Novi, Michigan. Besides 7 being a resident, I have been a businessman 8 in Novi with Prima Music in Twelve Oaks in 9 the early '80s. Piano Nation, Twelve Oaks 10 five years ago. I am a local merchant in 11 Livonia, Mara's (ph) Music. I have owned 12 Smiley Brothers Piano. General manager of 13 Grennell Piano. I owned Piano Center of 14 Midwest Sales and I have just opened up Big 15 Bay Auction which is an on-line business. 16 As a resident and as a businessman, I 17 have I always looked at Novi as a 18 possibility for me to expand. I didn't see 19 an opportunity that was affordable for me to 20 do this. In Livonia, like every other 21 community, our business has been down. At 22 one point I have owned twelve stores, I own 23 one store. 24 I can't afford to hire the people
293 1 I want to hit my sales goals. The only way 2 to do it is to go to another community and 3 have something that's easier and more 4 attainable to open another business. 5 Now the Trade Center is a wonderful 6 idea in my mind because it's affordable. I 7 can hire people right away. And the fact is 8 I am in the music business, musical 9 instruments. I have one or two other 10 prospects in mind that I could put into the 11 Trade Center and see if they incubate and 12 become something. And those would require 13 people to work. 14 Now, as a resident of Novi, I 15 think the taxes and the influx of money were 16 to broaden the tax base in Novi and as a 17 property owner in Novi, maybe I wouldn't 18 have to pay so much taxes in the future. 19 Maybe there is a possibility this would take 20 some of the burden off of the normal person 21 who lives in the city. 22 Now, as somebody who has owned stores 23 in Twelve Oaks, every time that we had 24 something happening at the Novi Expo, there
294 1 was an influx of business. We looked 2 forward to it. I don't see any reason it 3 would change. As a past exhibitor at the 4 Novi Expo when they had home shows and shows
5 of that situation, everything that the 6 attorney said were true. Sales happened. 7 There was commerce there. There was 8 traffic. The traffic was controllable. 9 Everything was in place. As being 10 duplicated again. I see a repetition of a 11 successful formula happening again in this 12 location. 13 So, to make it short because I have 14 been here since 7:30, I would say that as an 15 homeowner and a resident, I see benefits to 16 a normal person. As a businessman, 17 especially someone who has rented and had 18 stores in Twelve Oaks right across the 19 street, I see a benefit of influx. I don't 20 see any reason not to do this. In fact, as 21 a person in this state who sees there are 22 unemployed people, and people who can't pay 23 their mortgages, I think this is another 24 place that can provide some employment.
295 1 There will be employment opportunities. 2 Two days a week of employment is better than 3 no days a week. 4 Thank you very much. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have another 6 speaker. Yes, sir, please come forward. 7 In order to expedite it a little 8 bit, if we have several more speakers, you 9 might want to kind of form a line along the 10 wall, along this side, yes, so we can pass 11 them over. It might make it a little bit 12 quicker. 13 Mr. Secretary. 14 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear 15 or affirm to tell the truth regarding case: 16 07-059? 17 MR. WILLIAMS: I do. 18 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 19 MR. WILLIAMS: My name is Todd 20 Williams. I am a resident of Novi for 12 21 years. I live at 21970 York Mills. I also 22 own a business in Novi and as Mr. Smith 23 said, it's a win-win situation. I have 24 looked and I looked. I don't see a loser
296 1 here. I think the Adell family has offered 2 us an opportunity to change the headlines. 3 I am tired of picking up the newspaper 4 everyday and seeing how people are leaving 5 this state, losing jobs, and, again, they 6 are giving us a way to change those 7 headlines and I think we need to take to 8 take advantage of it. 9 Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We are looking 11 for a line over here. Do we have another 12 speaker? There we go. 13 MS. GIBSON: I'm sorry, who do I give 14 this to? 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: To our recording 16 secretary. Thank you. 17 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your right hand, 18 please. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to 19 tell the truth regarding case: 07-059? 20 MS. GIBSON: Yes, I do. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 22 MS. GIBSON: My name is Shelly Gibson. 23 Our family has owned Harold's Frame Shop. 24 We have been business for 58 years. We have
297 1 been in Novi since 1970. Our whole family 2 supports what Kevin is trying to do as it 3 will bring new business into the City of 4 Novi and it will continue to grow the City 5 of Novi. 6 My husband and I also bought a 7 business up in Bay City, and even though I 8 don't live in Novi, I feel like I have 9 because I have worked there for 20 years and 10 have been part of Harold's. But my husband 11 wanting to go into a different direction, he 12 bought a business up in Bay City which is 13 Outdoor Motor Sports Warehouse. It's a 14 parts and accessory business and it's a 15 discount outlet. 16 It's all new items for snowmobiles and 17 motorcycles. 18 We are looking to expand in the Novi 19 area and possibly get a building somewhere 20 in this area, but it's a perfect way to see 21 if we can do it. And at Harold's we own 22 property next to us in Randy Russells, we 23 eventually might build there. And if that 24 can help us know if this business can make
298 1 it in Novi, it's a perfect opportunity for 2 us to find out. 3 I mean, we bought the business 4 last fall and it's doing really well up 5 there. The previous owner was seasonal. 6 She only did snowmobile stuff. We are 7 keeping it open year around. Very careful 8 about what we put in, it's all new items. 9 But done right, I don't see why the Novi 10 Trade Center wouldn't be a win-win for 11 everybody. Thanks. 12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: In order to move 13 forward a little quicker let's reframe from 14 applause, please. Thank you. 15 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or affirm 16 to tell the truth regarding case: 07-059? 17 MS. GRAHAM: Yes, I will. 18 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 19 MS. GRAHAM: Good evening. My name is 20 Ruby Graham and I currently live in Lyon 21 Township. I'm the proud mother of a Novi 22 High School graduate and I was previously a 23 resident in Novi. Perhaps I will speak from 24 a little bit different perspective here
299 1 tonight. 2 You may notice that I have my label on 3 that I am associated with Avon. Avon has 4 been in business for well over a hundred 5 years. I would like to speak from the 6 perspective of an entrepreneur. You have 7 heard this evening that there are several 8 people interested in the Novi Trade Center. 9 As an entrepreneur there are many 10 of us that have tried different avenues to 11 present our merchandise. Of course, Avon 12 has come a long way in the years. What you 13 see here tonight is an opportunity. It's an 14 opportunity to help hundreds of people that 15 want to start their own business, that are 16 looking for an outlet to present their 17 goods. And Novi Trade Center is presenting 18 that opportunity. 19 I, myself, have tried in having my own 20 business in the Twelve Oaks Mall, 21 unfortunately I am smaller than what I can
22 manage in having that type of overhead to 23 present my goods. However, I have big 24 aspirations. I think all of us have big
300 1 aspirations. 2 This gives us an opportunity to try our hand 3 at our aspirations. What we're asking for 4 is an opportunity. 5 Avon has had the motto is the 6 company for women. It's changed now. It 7 knows that really to be in business it takes 8 a family effort. It takes couples. It 9 takes families. It takes your children. It 10 takes relatives and friends to help you in 11 your business. Now, Avon's motto is hello 12 tomorrow. What we do today is going to 13 determine our tomorrow. And your decisions 14 tonight can help all of the entrepreneurs 15 here that are looking to the Novi Trade 16 Center as their opportunity to experience 17 their tomorrow which gives them hopefully an 18 opportunity to even learn if they could go 19 into their own brick and mortar buildings 20 here in the Novi area. You have got a 21 fantastic, fantastic area here. We work 22 here. We come here to shop and you have got 23 a lot of people here that want to make the 24 Novi Trade Center a success.
301 1 Thank you for your time. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 3 Come on forward, sir. 4 MEMBER BAUER: He is an attorney. 5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: He is an 6 attorney? 7 MR. WATSON: Is that right? That's 8 true. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state 10 your name. 11 MR. WATSON: My name is Ron Watson. I 12 am a 35 year resident of the City of Novi. 13 I reside at 22036 Shady Brook. A lot of 14 that 35 years I have tried to be a positive 15 force in the community in terms of its 16 development. I served in elective office 17 for a little while. And for the last 18 20 years, I have been working for a 19 non-profit volunteer based organization 20 known as the Motor Sports Hall of Fame of 21 America. It's something that started back 22 in the late '80s, involved with the Novi 23 special race car. The first display was 24 actually in this very building at that time.
302 1 When the Novi Expo Center came along, 2 those folks were very gracious in allowing 3 us to have some space there to get a museum 4 project started. Really, we have come a 5 long way from that start. We have just had 6 our 19th induction ceremony in August of 7 this year. And what we did is have a Hall 8 of Fame that is known as a viable cultural 9 institution and to follow that with a great 10 museum facility. 11 That little museum facility that 12 we have in the building that's now called 13 the Novi Trade Center has had visitors from 14 just about every state in the union and 15 many, many foreign countries. It has the 16 respect of the racing and automotive 17 industries. It has really grown into a 18 cultural gem that any city I think would 19 love to have in their boundaries. 20 In fact, after the Novi Expo 21 Center left, we have talked to many 22 communities who really see the value of this 23 thing for our community and really have 24 expressed a lot of interest in having this
303 1 facility there. 2 Mr. Adell and his folks have come 3 along with this project that they are 4 proposing. They have made a lot of 5 improvements to the building as it stands 6 and have made promises to us for support. 7 First of all, they made a promise of zero 8 rent in the building which we have not had 9 up until this time. They have the potential 10 of bringing a lot of foot traffic in there 11 and a lot of physical improvements that they 12 promised to us that I think it will make it 13 a much, much more viable and attractive 14 facility. 15 So, I just want to tell you on behalf 16 of the board, the volunteers of this great 17 organization, that I think Kevin Adell truly 18 represents the best opportunity to retain 19 this important asset in this city. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, sir. 21 Any other people care to speak? 22 Seeing none, I will close the public hearing 23 and ask our Vice-Chair to address any 24 correspondence that we have received.
304 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 2 Mr. Chair. In this case we received 26 3 notices. There was one approval and ten 4 objections. 5 To whom it may concern. It has come 6 to the attention of the Meadowbrook 7 Homeowner's Association that there might be 8 a new Trade Center put in the Expo Center. 9 We as homeowners do not want that to happen. 10 A trade business would definitely downgrade 11 the fine quality of life that Novi residents 12 are used to. We have a beautiful community, 13 a safe community for our children and we 14 want to keep it that way. Surely there must 15 be something such an indoor sports center 16 that could be done with the Expo Center. 17 Signed, the president of said 18 homeowners association and approximately 19 25yish people. 20 Do I need to read each of those names, 21 sir? 22 MR. SCHULTZ: Through the Chair, I 23 don't think you need to. They are 24 reflected.
305 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It is in 2 the record. All right, thank you. 3 To the City of Novi Zoning Board from 4 Ron Milan the President of Brodmerkel Park 5 Subdivision at P.O. Box 1255. Ladies and 6 gentlemen of the Board, it has come to my 7 attention that the Board must consider a use 8 variance for the former Novi Expo Center. 9 This variance would allow the facility to be 10 used as a trade center market. The use of 11 the term flea market would more accurately 12 describe the specific use that the 13 Petitioner is requesting. 14 For purposes of the letter I will 15 continue to call it a flea market. The 16 market would unnecessarily burden the 17 already very busy intersection of Novi Road 18 and I-96 several times per week. And with 19 the arrival and departure of vendors and 20 shoppers from outside our area. 21 A flea market is not the kind of 22 business activity that helps a positive 23 progression of our community. And a flea 24 market is not where Novi residents and
306 1 consumers will be shopping. There is no 2 demand in our community for such 3 merchandise. 4 Several times a week activities would 5 make is more difficult for other activities 6 to be scheduled at the Expo Center. This 7 Novi resident tax paying and voting 8 constituent strongly request that the Zoning 9 Board of Appeals deny this use variance. 10 Let the record show that it does 11 not appear that he was speaking on behalf of 12 the homeowners association, but he was 13 mentioning that he is the president of said 14 homeowner association. 15 This is an objection -- I'm sorry, an 16 approval from Ron Orr Striker of 6665 Pine 17 Eagle Lane in West Bloomfield, Michigan. To 18 Mr. Clay Pearson. 19 I think that the community would be 20 most fortunate in having the Novi Trade 21 Center open again. I believe it would add 22 needed jobs, more tax base and provide an 23 additional venue in our area. 24 In the past I have attended many
307 1 functions and was disappointed when the 2 center closed. The Novi Trade Center is 3 centrally located and has become an 4 important destination location for local 5 residents and those visiting. 6 John and Connie Garbosick (ph) of 7 45626 Emerald Forest Drive. Dear 8 Commission. On September 28th, one of 9 America's premier retail establishments will 10 open its door in Novi. This opening 11 continues the expansion of Novi retailers 12 that improves the image of our community. 13 Their customers will be attracted to Novi's 14 restaurants and other retail outlets and 15 will look positively upon our community. 16 The proposed flea market in the Novi 17 Expo Center will diminish image that Novi 18 has worked hard to create. A proud resident 19 for over 18 years, we appreciate the 20 schools, same in retail and low crime. 21 Within our neighborhood we have not heard 22 any support for the flea market. Everyone 23 supports maximizing the image of Novi. 24 Please do not support a zoning
308 1 variance for this property as any that would 2 allow any flea market to operate on said 3 address. 4 Another letter. To Mr. Clay 5 Pearson, City Manager. And it is from Meg 6 Lindsey. No apparent address -- I'm sorry, 7 42685 Faulkner Drive. 8 Mr. Pearson, I am against the approval 9 of the flea market coming to the old Expo 10 Center in Novi, Michigan. 11 Edna Rishar (ph) of 24548 Bashon 12 Drive. City of Novi, attention ZBA members. 13 This is to express my apprehension about the 14 possibility of a flea market being located
15 in the Expo Center. 16 Flea markets are noted for bringing a 17 lot of junk and I avoid them as many others 18 do. What benefit would it be to the City of 19 Novi to have a flea market? It seems to me 20 and others with whom I have discussed, it 21 would take away the quality community that 22 the City officials and residents have worked 23 hard to promote. 24 Candy Lazelle (ph) Churchill Crossing
309
1 Subdivision, north of Ten Mile, west of Novi 2 Road. 3 On behalf of the Churchill Crossing 4 Subdivision located at said intersection, I 5 would like to express my concern for the 6 former Novi Expo Center turning into a trade 7 center. I was under the impression that 8 Rock Financial Showplace was created to 9 divert traffic and congestion from the Novi 10 Road and I-96 area. 11 I also thought that I read the land 12 that the former Expo Center sits, that the 13 former Expo Center sits on was going to turn 14 into a badly needed exit and entrance ramp 15 for I-96. Also since Novi Road will be shut 16 down in the near future due to -- 17 (There was an interruption in the 18 proceedings.) 19 MS. ADELL: I am so sorry. It's my 20 babysitter, I'm sorry. I didn't expect to be 21 so late. 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No problem. 23 If you would like to step out you are more 24 than welcomed to.
310 1 MS. ADELL: No, that's okay. I turned 2 it off. You can go on. I love to hear these 3 letters. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Creating 5 more congestion on Novi Road and I-96 will 6 be a nightmare for those of us who depend on 7 the corridor to get to and from work. 8 Traffic in and around Novi can be 9 challenging and creating an additional Expo
10 or Trade Center would make the snared 11 traffic come to a complete stop. 12 Timothy Quinn of 41473 Twain Place in 13 Novi, Michigan states: To Mr. Pearson, City 14 Manager that he strongly is opposed to the 15 zoning requests to open a Trade Center in 16 the old Expo Center. He is aware of the 17 conditions and environment surrounding the 18 Gilbralter Trade Center and the clientele 19 they draw on a regular basis. 20 Novi is not a community where this 21 type of activity takes place, nor would the 22 residents be interested. I hope that the 23 Zoning Board understands this and that many 24 other uses for the old center will be
311 1 considered over and above this request. 2 As a Board of Director member at 3 Tollgate Ravines, I know the housing market 4 is already tough enough without adding the 5 market depreciation by adding such a 6 facility. 7 M. Owen, of 22583 Fuller Drive sent a 8 letter via our recording secretary: I am 9 writing this letter in regards to the Zoning 10 Board variance request that has been asked 11 on behalf of Novi Trade Center for the prior 12 Novi Expo Center. I have been a resident of 13 Novi involved with the Royal Crown 14 Homeowners Association for twelve years. I 15 am concerned about the future of the present 16 Novi Expo Center location and what the City 17 is approving for its placement. I do not 18 feel that the Novi Trade Center is the 19 direction the City should be taking for the 20 future of our city. 21 I personally oppose the variance 22 request being requested. 23 Christina William Green of 44932 24 Lights Way Drive state that: There are
312 1 concerned about the old Novi Expo Center 2 being turned into a trade center. 3 There is enough traffic. 4 Susan Muller of 44764 Fordway states 5 that, in Novi Michigan states that: Since 6 we already have the new Rock Financial 7 Center in Novi, I am against adding a trade 8 center. I would like to voice my concern 9 and we don't need additional traffic. 10 Alfred Darrold (ph) of 25144 Sutton 11 Court states that: He has been a resident 12 since August of 2006. Now that the city -- 13 is disappointed that the city may be 14 planning to have a trade market in the area. 15 Novi is currently attractive and a desirable 16 place. The reason for my letter is to offer 17 my view and thoughts on an issue recently 18 mentioned in Cranes Detroit magazine. 19 The redevelopment of the facility 20 represents an opportunity for the city as 21 well as a risk. It is my opinion that the 22 center should be dedicated to an activity of 23 function that is compatible with the 24 immediate surroundings like Twelve Oaks and
313 1 with the image and direction we went for the 2 city. 3 Further, it is an opportunity to 4 enhance the utility for and activeness to 5 the citizens of Novi and other professional 6 people in the area. I would like to see the 7 facility dedicated to some activity, perhaps 8 like indoor sports that would attract and 9 encourage use by professional people as 10 Twelve Oaks Mall does. 11 The flea market notion seems 12 incompatible and the location and visibility 13 seems to opportunity and advertise too many 14 travelers what Novi has to offer and does 15 not believe that we want to offer a flea 16 market in that well visible area. 17 John Kanezo (ph) of Echo Valley Civic 18 Association, stating -- no address: This 19 letter is in opposition to the variance 20 request filed by Scott Smith of Clark Hill 21 for the Adell Brothers Trust and the appeal 22 of the decision by the deputy director of 23 community development. Which stated that a 24 trade center market does not fall within the
314 1 uses allowed in an Expo District. It is 2 clear that the Petitioner wishes to 3 establish a flea market much in the nature 4 of one called the Gibraltar Trade Center. 5 As the president of the homeowners 6 association for 101 members, I can assure 7 the Zoning Board of Appeals that we have no 8 need for such a center. 9 There is currently retail stores in 10 Novi, Northville, South Lyon. In addition, 11 most subdivisions including our own hold 12 annual garage sales where residents can sale 13 unwanted items from their home. Flea 14 markets can be venues -- flea markets can 15 become venues for the marketing of stolen 16 merchandise and police departments are aware 17 of the low supervision of weapon sales which 18 can occur there. 19 While I can appreciate the owner of 20 the old Expo Center wanting to make use of 21 this property, it should be done in a way -- 22 it should not be done in a way that 23 negatively affects our community or 24 compromises safety.
315 1 That's all, Mr. Chair. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 3 Mr. Smith, do you care to comment on 4 any of the correspondence or any of the 5 public discussion made this evening before 6 we move on? 7 MR. SMITH: I think, Mr. Chairman, I 8 already did during the course of my 9 comments, so I won't repeat that now. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. Thank 11 you. I wanted to give you the opportunity. 12 Is there any comments from the staff 13 or Counsel at this time? 14 MR. SCHULTZ: None specific. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, I am sure 16 the Board has many questions or comments, so 17 we'll open it up to the Board for 18 discussion. 19 Member Sanghvi? 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. 21 Chairman. 22 First of all, I want to thank you all for 23 being here at this late hour. And hopefully 24 my wife is watching this so she knows where
316 1 I am. 2 And this is a very interesting 3 complicated, if you want to make it 4 complicated issue. And my feeling would be 5 that we need to look into all the 6 presentations that have been made and the 7 new material. We need to ask a few 8 questions to some of the City officials 9 about why they reacted the way they did and 10 other things. And at late this hour my 11 personal inclination would be to I think 12 adjourn this discussion at another time and 13 continue on with the discussion later on. 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please, please. 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you, 17 Member Sanghvi. 18 Other comments? Member Canup? 19 MEMBER CANUP: I listened to the 20 presentations, again, thank all you people 21 for coming and being here as late as it is. 22 And one of the things that popped into my 23 mind is you got 30,000 visitors each 24 weekend, very successful, where are you
317 1 going to park them all? That's my question. 2 MR. SMITH: 30,000 visitors don't all 3 park at the same time. That's over the 4 course of two days. It's also a projection 5 that's probably on the optimistic side. 6 There is a lot of parking on site. We 7 thought of having the exhibitors park off 8 site and shuttling them back to the site. 9 We are also trying to work an 10 arrangement with a neighboring property 11 owner to share parking on weekends when they 12 are not open and operating and are in the 13 midst of doing exactly that, having that 14 negotiation occur. 15 MEMBER CANUP: I think from my 16 viewpoint that would be a very major thing 17 is that there would have to be some 18 contracts in place. For me any way, I would 19 want to see where this parking is going to 20 go on. Looking at it over there there is -- 21 how many parking spaces are there on site? 22 MR. SMITH: 952 spaces on site. 23 MEMBER CANUP: Does that include the 24 property going parallel to the --
318 1 MR. SMITH: No, that includes just the 2 Trade Center site. Those are all shown on 3 the site plan. 4 MEMBER CANUP: You have roughly a 5 thousand sites of parking? 6 MR. SMITH: That's correct. We would 7 be amenable if you would place a condition 8 on it that we would have to address parking 9 concerns. 10 MEMBER CANUP: That would be something 11 that I would want to see in absolute 12 writing, a contractual non-expiring type of 13 thing before I would be willing to consider 14 this. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Further 16 comments? 17 MEMBER CANUP: End of my comments. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 19 Member Wrobel? 20 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. 21 Chair. We hear that we are being told that 22 this is not a flea market. Having been to 23 the Gibralter Trade Center a lot of people 24 are afraid that that's what will happen. And
319 1 you are telling us, no, it's not going to be 2 that. It's going to be more upscale, most 3 arts, crafts, things of that nature. 4 That's good initially, but what 5 guarantees do we have that it does not over 6 time become a flea market. I mean, as you 7 were saying, the economy is bad, people are 8 looking for jobs, looking for things. If 9 you can't fill your slots with the business 10 you want to do, what do you do when you got 11 to lower your standards or something? Where 12 is the cut off? 13 MR. SMITH: Well, we've got 4,000 14 people interested so far. 15 MEMBER WROBEL: Interest is one thing. 16 Commitment is another. 17 MR. SMITH: In 1,200 spaces at the 18 most 1,200 spaces. And you are certainly 19 within your purview, again, particularly if 20 you are addressing this as a variance issue 21 to impose conditions on it that would 22 indicate what kinds of things can and can't 23 be exhibited and sold there. 24 And we are amenable to that. We are
320 1 amenable to working with the City to come up 2 with an arrangement that you would find 3 acceptable. 4 MR. WROBEL: As a long time resident 5 of Novi, when the Novi Expo Center was 6 there, when a big event would come in and 7 you're saying 30,000 over a weekend it was 8 an ungodly area to be around. 9 If you were a resident you knew to 10 avoid that area because of traffic concerns. 11 I still have a lot of concerns if something 12 like this would go in, but how are we going 13 to handle the traffic? That's something 14 that would have to be worked out. 15 Another issue is, from the City have 16 we heard any comments from the fire 17 department what their stand is on this? 18 MR. SCHULTZ: Through the Chair. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please. 20 MR. SCHULTZ: The use variance hasn't 21 specifically been referred to the fire 22 department. If it's something the Board 23 would do or the Board would want, then 24 that's something you would direct tonight.
321 1 MEMBER WROBEL: From a safety 2 standpoint for fire and for injuries or 3 something where paramedics would have to get 4 in there, we are concerned about things of 5 that nature. 6 I have got a lot of questions but it's 7 getting late. I will just let some of my 8 other colleagues go ahead. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member 10 Fischer? 11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You had 12 mentioned that it would be mostly mom and 13 pop shops as opposed to larger businesses. 14 Do you have a percentage? 15 MR. SMITH: I think virtually all of 16 them are. They are very small operations. 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Virtually. 18 MR. SMITH: I don't know of any larger 19 businesses, Kevin doesn't have any larger 20 businesses lined up. All of the people 21 there are single people, husband and wife 22 kinds of things. All of them on the list 23 that we have submitted. 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You said
322 1 many are from the Novi area. What about a 2 percentage on that? 3 MR. SMITH: The best I have been able 4 to do so far would be the breakdown that you 5 were shown earlier slowing by area code. We 6 could try to do more of a breakdown and take 7 a look at addresses if that's important to 8 you. 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I was just 10 under the impression, giving you are talking 11 about the full understanding of all the 12 exhibitors that you would have those 13 percentages. You talked about the 14 understanding of everybody who was 15 interested and making sure that this would 16 go forward, that you would have that 17 demographic breakdown. 18 MR. SMITH: Kevin is just 19 whispering in my ear that we had 100 people 20 from Novi who were interested. And have 21 signed, and again I can get you some of 22 those breakdowns if that's important to you. 23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. I 24 might add, Mr. Chair, if the Petitioner does
323 1 request to continue to send information 2 through, I would appreciate him to be sworn 3 in just to make sure. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: He's an 5 attorney. 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: The 7 other Petitioner. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Oh, I'm sorry. 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: A lot of 10 information seems to be coming from 11 different -- 12 MR. SMITH: He just pulls my chain and 13 I talk. 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: 15 Understandable. That's what I do for a day 16 job. I'm just a little puppet. 17 You had mentioned people can buy two 18 to three times the space. Is there a 19 ceiling on that? Or can someone buy 30 20 spaces? 40 spaces? 21 MR. SMITH: No. We're just saying 22 that instead of a 6 by 12 they might want a 23 12 by 12 or something similar. 24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Let's make it
324 1 official. Can he be sworn in? 2 MR. SMITH: That's fine. 3 MR. ADELL: My name is Kevin Adell. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear 5 or affirm to tell the truth regarding case: 6 07-059? 7 MR. ADELL: I do. 8 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: What would 11 be the ceiling? 12 MR. ADELL: Well, I wouldn't 13 allow anyone to have 30 booths or 20 booths. 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Do you have 15 a ceiling in mind? 16 MR. ADELL: Five. 17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay, thank 18 you. And then a couple questions for our 19 City staff. But before I get into that, I 20 do want to thank everybody for being here. 21 All of your comments and all of the stuff 22 that was presented today will definitely be 23 taken into consideration. But the thing 24 that we do have to consider as the attorneys
325 1 on behalf of the Petitioner have explained 2 very well, there is very complicated laws 3 involved with this. So I am going to have 4 to echo the sentiments of Member Sanghvi to 5 have the City attorney and all the staff 6 answer the questions that we all come up 7 with tonight. I definitely agree with that. 8 If it was all up to us to just make a 9 decision that would be a different story. 10 But we're a Board that we have to abide by 11 city, state, federal law as the Petitioner's 12 attorney had even stated. But I do 13 appreciate everyone coming tonight and 14 everyone's comments and support will be 15 taken into consideration. 16 Some things I kind of noted. When we 17 discussed the law and the elements of undue 18 hardship, as far as the economy being taken 19 into consideration, how far can that be 20 taken? This isn't a question I am asking 21 tonight, this is something I would like 22 maybe in a formal letter. 23 I would hate to see the City getting 24 involved in something where every time there
326 1 was an issue because the economy went down, 2 I don't see it as the City government's 3 policy or job to bail people out in a sense. 4 Number two, having to do with the 5 aging building and other buildings around 6 the area being more equipped. I guess my 7 question would be there that, are we looking 8 at the property or are we looking at the 9 building? And if the building is a problem 10 and there is other places that people 11 interested in that can go to, is that the 12 City's job to then grant a variance because 13 of the building issues or does that 14 represent a practical difficulty? 15 Lastly, what about competition? 16 We have had discussion of they don't want to 17 compete with Rock Financial Showplace. Can 18 we grant a variance based off of well, yes, 19 they can use it in competition with Rock 20 Financial Showplace, but they just don't 21 want to, they want to compliment? 22 So, those would be my questions to 23 you. One thing I did note, we talked about 24 Mayor Landry and his trip and I don't know
327 1 if it's appropriate or not, but if you look 2 into that and if you do report back on any 3 of that. 4 MR. SCHULTZ: Well, that one I can 5 answer. Well, that one I can answer. Mayor 6 Landry indicated he didn't make the meeting. 7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There was a 8 reference to 2004 and Mayor Landry wasn't 9 mayor in 2004. 10 MR. SCHULTZ: He wasn't mayor. 11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: That was my 12 was question, how could that have taken 13 place. And that is where I will leave it at 14 this time. I hope that gives the City 15 attorney, I know that maybe Member Wrobel or 16 other members had some more direction for 17 staff and I will leave it up to them for 18 their questions. 19 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 21 Other comments from the Board? Questions? 22 Concerns? 23 I would like to ask, can someone 24 please walk me through the scenario of
328 1 beginning to set up on a Thursday or a 2 Friday, all the way through to the closing 3 on a Sunday, traffic pattern, number of 4 trucks coming and going, things along that 5 line so I have a better understanding of 6 exactly what's going to happen. I do have 7 serious concerns about the infrastructure. 8 It's been several years since the Expo has 9 been there and traffic keeps going up, et 10 cetera. 11 MR. ADELL: I only look at 12 two days of in operation, Saturday and 13 Sunday. Friday would be a setup. Most of 14 the booths would be permanent booths. 15 People might come there and add things to 16 their booth. But I can't see people coming 17 and going and leaving their booths. We will 18 have security on staff. They don't have to 19 take their items with them. The building 20 will be fully secured. 21 There are cameras in the building 22 right now, cameras in the parking lot. We 23 will probably have way amount of security, 24 probably -- the building will be secured
329 1 24 hours a day. You won't be able to be 2 coming in there in the back. So, I can't 3 see people leaving their stuff, taking their 4 stuff, just probably adding to it on 5 Fridays. 6 The hours of operations would be 10 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. on Saturday or Sunday. If 8 there is less traffic at 10:00 I will shut 9 it down at 9:00 or 8:00, but I would start 10 it at 10 a.m., and it depends on the market, 11 the market will determine what time I close. 12 I wouldn't stay past 10:00. I don't 13 think my employees want to work past 10:00. 14 Probably somewhere from 10 a.m. and 9. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And all 16 activities would always be in doors? 17 MR. ADELL: That's correct. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Nothing in the 19 parking lots? 20 MR. ADELL: Nothing in the parking 21 lots. 22 MR. SMITH: And part of the idea here 23 too is that with the booths already set up, 24 people aren't going to have to have trucks
330 1 and so forth, they will be able to just 2 bring things in in their personal vehicles 3 and vans and so forth. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The only time 5 there is going to be a major interruption 6 then would be in between the themes? 7 Because if you change from theme to another, 8 a substantial number of your vendors may 9 change, am I correct? 10 MR. ADELL: Well, the themes will be 11 advertised on TV. I am sure the themes 12 aren't going to be elaborate. They will 13 be -- like I missed the back to school, 14 obviously we were going to give 2,000 15 backpacks and school supplies. But there 16 will be holiday themes. And it won't take 17 much for an exhibitor to go with the 18 two-month theme. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, you are 20 anticipating that the exhibitors pretty much 21 would stay the same, they would change their 22 merchandise or change their approach based 23 on the theme as opposed to changing vendors? 24 MR. ADELL: No, the themes will be,
331 1 let's say it's a fall theme, they will bring 2 fall merchandise for that theme. 3 MR. SMITH: Some of the vendors will 4 remain the same and it may change. Other
5 vendors will focus on what they only have. 6 If there are handcrafted items and they are 7 selling Christmas ornaments they are likely 8 to do that in anticipation for a Christmas 9 season. If there are people who are selling 10 silk flowers and spring bouquets kinds of 11 things they are going to do that in I think 12 Spring kind of theme. So, there will be some 13 changes, but some of them will remain the 14 same. 15 MR. ADELL: That's correct. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, thank you. 17 A question for the City, but we lost 18 our City people. Maybe Ms. Working knows or 19 Mr. Schultz might be able to answer it. 20 The process, if this gets approved 21 whenever, does it go to the Planning 22 Commission for review of all the details and 23 then do a traffic flow? The interior setup, 24 the fire department was mentioned before,
332 1 storm sewer drainage, all that type stuff, 2 does it go to them after we approve it or 3 after it's denied at our end? How does this 4 work? 5 MR. SCHULTZ: A couple of different 6 ways to answer that. 7 Number one, theoretically you 8 would only be approving the use. And if 9 there are any kind of changes to the actual 10 site, parking analysis, things like that, 11 that's something the Planning Commission 12 would normally do. But as Mr. Smith pointed 13 out, one of the things that you get to do as 14 part of an approval if that were the case 15 would be to require additional things like 16 that it be reviewed by other entities like 17 the Planning Commission or City engineer or 18 things like that. 19 I suspect that with some of the 20 significant issues like parking, one of the 21 things you're going to want to look at if 22 you decide that the use is okay is have the 23 staff look at specifics on that and probably 24 even the Planning Commission.
333 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. 2 MR. SCHULTZ: But that will be your 3 indication. 4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I 5 understand. Has there been a traffic study 6 done recently of that area are you aware? 7 MR. SMITH: We're told 2006. We'll 8 try to find that for you. 9 In addition, of course, obviously 10 the traffic patterns aren't a lot different 11 than they were at the Novi Expo Center which 12 already theoretically is a permitted use. 13 We will be happy to try to look at that and 14 help you address those issues. 15 We understand there are some concerns. 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And the City may 17 have some information on the most recent 18 traffic study as well. 19 What I am looking at here, at 20 least from my side is there is a lot of 21 questions that need to be looked at further. 22 You have presented us information that 23 obviously we haven't had an opportunity to 24 review. So, is there something that we want
334 1 to move forward on at this point or is there 2 a need to move this on to another meeting? 3 Member Canup? 4 MEMBER CANUP: We have received a 5 substantial amount of information from the 6 Petitioner. We have also had a substantial 7 amount of input from the public. What we do 8 not have is a formal response from the 9 City's professionals to the material 10 submitted by the Petitioner or to the public 11 comments. 12 In particular we do not have any City 13 response to the Petitioner's ability to use 14 the property for light industrial purposes. 15 In order to get that response, we as a Board 16 need to request that of the staff. 17 I would move that we table this matter 18 to the October meeting to allow staff time 19 to formally respond to the material 20 submitted by the Petitioner and to the 21 public comment information. 22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Second. 23 MR. SMITH: I know it's not my place. 24 Can I just ask a clarifying question as to
335 1 your intent in the Motion? Is it your 2 intent that we work together with City staff 3 to address those questions and come back to 4 you with something that will have those 5 fully addressed? 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Let's have our 7 legal counsel work with your legal counsel 8 to address that. Is that appropriate? 9 MR. SCHULTZ: We will happy to work 10 with Mr. Smith or whomever to get the 11 information. I am assuming what you are 12 looking for is sort of a formal response to 13 Mr. Smith's legal issue on the appeal which? 14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I don't want to 15 give them a directive to work with our 16 staff. 17 MR. SCHULTZ: But that one isn't going 18 to involve Mr. Smith. That's sort of our 19 response to his legal argument. But 20 certainly with regard to the other 21 information, we'll be happy to meet with him 22 and see what he can add. 23 MR. SMITH: I was thinking more on the 24 variance end of things and the
336 1 interpretation end of things, Mr. Schultz. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any information 3 that you could provide to the City that 4 would help them address our questions would 5 be greatly appreciated. 6 MR. SMITH: Okay. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any further 8 discussion by the Board? 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: The further comment I 10 would like to make is this is not going to 11 be a confrontational relationship from my 12 point of view. And let's work together, 13 find the right solutions and come up with 14 the right answers. 15 MR. SMITH: We would like to do that. 16 Thank you. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: This is 18 obviously a very, very serious issue that we 19 want to address and we want to make sure we 20 make the right decisions for all parties 21 involved. 22 So, we have a Motion on the floor. We 23 have a second on the floor. 24 You may call the roll, please.
337 1 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 2 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 6 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 14 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Motion to table is 16 approved 7-0. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you 18 very much. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Still more work to 20 do? 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, there are 22 four other items on the agenda we need to 23 address. 24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Take two
338 1 minutes? 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We'll just 3 wait. 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Excuse 5 me, ladies and gentlemen, we do have some 6 other business to take care of, so if you 7 are planning on leaving, if you could exist 8 in a quick fashion we would greatly 9 appreciate that. 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I was 11 just going to ask them to take the 12 conversation outside. 13 Thank you, Mr. Smith. 14 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 15 16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, let's 17 move forward. We have got four more items on 18 the agenda. I am not going to take another 19 break. I want to go through with them. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go on, get on with 21 it. 22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And keep going. 23 The next item under Other Matters is ZBA 24 07-050 from Andiamo as a possible
339 1 reconsideration. 2 Do you want to address that, Ms. 3 Working? 4 MS. WORKING: Through the Chair, in 5 your packet, in your file you received a 6 copy of the e-mail correspondence of Ms. 7 Kudla from the hearing from last month which 8 would have been in August. The Petitioner 9 came before you with a quorum of four and 10 was denied their sign petition request and 11 questioned whether or not if they came 12 forward with additional material if they 13 would, the Board would possibly reconsider, 14 enter a Motion to reconsider. 15 The Petitioner did submit additional 16 material. It was noticed correctly and it's 17 before you here tonight for your decision on 18 how you would like to proceed. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. The 20 first portion of this would be to entertain 21 a Motion for reconsideration and then we go 22 into discussion. 23 Anybody want to make a Motion? 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, I'll make a
340 1 Motion that we reconsider this issue and 2 perhaps invite them back to make a 3 presentation at the next the meeting. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 5 MR. SCHULTZ: Discussion on the 6 Motion. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, sir. 8 Discussion. 9 MR. SCHULTZ: What has changed? 10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Before there was 11 no brick work, it's this to this is what 12 they are requesting. The comments from the 13 Board was that they took away everything 14 that was indicative of the building of the 15 Main Street East building including the 16 signage that said Main Street East. So all 17 the other tenants there were not being -- 18 MEMBER CANUP: My thoughts on this is 19 it's a whole different case. They should 20 reapply. 21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Well, let's 22 move on with the Motion that's on the table. 23 MEMBER CANUP: I am still allowed to 24 have my say.
341 1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Absolutely. 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, we had a 3 Motion, we had a second. Any other 4 discussion? 5 MS. WORKING: Mr. Chair? 6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If Mr. 7 Sanghvi -- were you here last? 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: No. 9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Was he 10 allowed to make a Motion to reconsider? 11 MR. SCHULTZ: It does have to be 12 one of the people who voted for it. 13 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would 14 move to reconsider the case. 15 MR. SCHULTZ: I wasn't there 16 either. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It's late, 18 right? 19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I would 20 move to reconsider case 07-050. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I will second 22 it. We have a Motion and a second. 23 Please call the roll. 24 MEMBER CANUP: Excuse me, those who
342 1 weren't here can they vote on this? 2 MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 10 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 12 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 14 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: And Member Wrobel? 16 MEMBER WROBEL: No. 17 MS. WORKING: Motion to reconsider 18 passes 6-1. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Now, do we need 20 to go into a separate -- 21 MR. SCHULTZ: It will automatically be 22 on that next agenda. 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, great. 24
343 1 Our second item under Other Matters is 2 ZBA 07-020, Lot 61 Pioneer Meadows. 3 Does the anyone care to comment on 4 that? 5 MEMBER CANUP: There was an extension. 6 I don't see any problem with that. 7 MS. WORKING: By Ordinance, when the 8 Board grants a variance, the Petitioner has 9 90 days to submit for building permit. In 10 this case he had some problems with 11 architectural drawings being able to be 12 produced within that period of something 13 that he could come in agreement with and he 14 just approached the City requesting if he 15 could have an extension to that 90-day 16 period. 17 MEMBER CANUP: Actually the house that 18 he is building there he is building one next 19 door to the one that he is asking an 20 extension on and he's doing a nice job. I 21 don't see any, my comment would be I don't 22 see any reason not to grant him that. I 23 would imagine he is probably going to be 24 sitting on that house for a while.
344 1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is that a Motion 2 to -- 3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Motion to 4 extend time 90 days from when it first 5 expired. 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please call the 8 roll. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 14 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 16 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer? 20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: Member Canup? 22 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING: Motion to extend -- was 24 that 90 days? Passes 7-0.
345 1 2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The third item
3 on the agenda is from Toll Brothers. The 4 Petitioner is requesting an extension of 5 30 days requirement to submit land owner 6 approval. That was the case that we 7 discussed and he hasn't received that 8 approval yet so he is asking for an 9 extension. 10 MS. WORKING: Actually I just was 11 noticed yesterday that there has not been 12 agreement and that the Petitioner is 13 willingly having the sign removed from that 14 10 Mile and Wixom location. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So it's a moot 16 point. 17 MS. WORKING: It's a moot point. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, great. 19 20 The fourth item on the agenda or 21 last item is ITC. 22 MS. WORKING: Through the Chair, our 23 building official, Mr. Hines, has been in 24 conversation with the sign company
346 1 representing ITC who will come before you on 2 the October agenda. And often the Board 3 that goes to make site visits to look at the 4 signage proposed, and this area is very 5 heavily under construction. There are some 6 safety concerns that the building official 7 has and he would request that you consider 8 renderings that are submitted that are very 9 detailed and have that sort of realistic 10 feel as opposed to encouraging you to do a 11 site visit. 12 The access on and off that piece of 13 property is strictly enforced for people who 14 are working there and he is looking at this 15 from a building safety, public safety 16 standpoint. 17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any comments 18 from the Board? 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Isn't that premature 20 to do anything then until they are at the 21 point when it is safe for us to go in and 22 check? 23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: He is requesting 24 that they submit a rendering as opposed to
347 1 postponing until we can go on site. 2 MR. SCHULTZ: I think there are a 3 handful of like the Providence one, the sign 4 is going to be too tall to be safely erected 5 like that. I think Mr. Hines' point is that 6 this kind of a different use. It's a 7 utility. They are very nervous about the 8 plans that they have submitted. They are 9 nervous about having people on the site as 10 they building it. There is gated entry. 11 It's just a different kind of use. 12 I think that's why Mr. Hines is 13 saying this might be one that has a little 14 different characteristics, a few different 15 characteristics that you might find an 16 alternative. But it is within your 17 discretion, so that's why it's on your 18 agenda. 19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Fischer? 20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Isn't this 21 the one that we approved the guard shack for 22 anyway? I mean there is obviously some 23 safety concern there even when the whole 24 thing was built. I guess I don't have an
348 1 issue. 2 My question would be who pays for the 3 color? I want very detailed colored copies. 4 Who pays for them? I would want them to 5 submit 14, 15, 20 however many copies in 6 color. I don't want us to have to pay for 7 all of our packets. 8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: No. 9 MS. WORKING: I can certainly be in 10 conversation with the sign company 11 representing the Petitioner and make that 12 request very clear coming from the Board to 13 the sign company. 14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. 15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Are we all in 16 agreement with that? 17 BOARD MEMBERS: Sure. 18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We don't need a 19 Motion on that, correct? 20 MR. SCHULTZ: No. 21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I'll entertain a 22 Motion for adjournment. 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: So moved. 24 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
349 1 (The meeting was adjourned at 2 1:45 a.m.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
350 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby 5 certify that I have recorded 6 stenographically the proceedings had and 7 testimony taken in the above-entitled matter 8 at the time and place hereinbefore set 9 forth, and I do further certify that the 10 foregoing transcript, consisting of (290) 11 typewritten pages, is a true and correct 12 transcript of my said stenographic notes. 13 14 15 16 17 18 _____________________________ 19 Mona L. Talton, 20 Certified 21 Shorthand Reporter 22 23 September 26, 2007 24
|